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[Music]

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thank you

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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foreign

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[Music]

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thank you good evening broadcasting live

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from the northern Wilderness I bid you

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all a good evening good morning good

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afternoon wherever you may be across the

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continent around the world I'm Campbell

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marrera and this is the invisible night

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school

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for those of you just joining us ins was

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founded by a small group of researchers

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and Scholars analytically exploring the

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study of paranormal phenomena

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epistemology and the cultural and social

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implications of UFO phenomena

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ins is not a monolith we represent

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varied ideas backgrounds disciplines and

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experiences

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and seek to engage in good faith

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dialogue with other curious minds now

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let's bring on my co-hosts Louise and

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Nick how you guys doing Louise what's up

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the sky

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very nice Nick how are you doing well

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how are you I'm all right uh let's uh

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just point out the obvious Leah Prime is

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not with us tonight but

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she will be here next week again and the

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world will be right again yeah tonight

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though well

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let's not uh draw a line in the sand yet

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Nick let's see where the Knight takes us

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yeah we do have a UFO topic tonight yes

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uh people have asked for uh labels I've

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got my Guinness right here

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um anybody else drinking anything right

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now Pepsi okay

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I got coffee too I already know nothing

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all right all right well let's move on

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to the uh guest this evening tonight we

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have Kurt Collins with us Kurt writes

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about UFOs with a special interest in

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reinvestigating the paradoxical 1980

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Texas Cash Landrum case

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he is the author Behind Blue blurry

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lines a website focused on the UFO

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mystery as well as its Legends and

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hoaxes in 2015 Kurt was on the

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investigative team the Roswell slides

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research group that exposed the be

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witness alien photo Fiasco more recently

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he launched the saucers That Time Forgot

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with Cloud falkstrom focused on on their

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thing tales that UFO history has

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overlooked or would rather forget Kurt

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welcome to the invisible night school

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thank you finally got you on here uh now

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I'm I'm familiar with you through the

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blogs that uh Campbell read in your

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intro but what is this research team

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with the uh the Roswell slide story I'm

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not familiar with that at all I'm not

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sure if the listeners are either

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well the uh

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The hoax that that uh Roswell slides it

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sort of died early so not as many people

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have heard about it today but in uh

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2015 there was this big event held in

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Mexico how about uh Jaime Assad and UFO

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researchers Tom Kerry and Don Schmidt

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were um consulted by this media guy

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to uh who had discovered this picture of

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what he thought was a Roswell alien so

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uh there it there was a lot of secrecy

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about it and you know it was It was

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supposed to be the Smoking Gun it was

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going to prove the reality of Roswell

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and extraterrestrial life and everything

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so

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a few few online friends

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um Isaac Coy Chris Rakowski uh some

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Skeptics Tim prany uh Lance Moody Paul

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Campbell uh some other people s miles

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Lewis

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um you know several others kind of going

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blank on everyone but we we sort of

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formed an informal group seeing them

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what can we learn about this and uh

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eventually a trailer came out for the

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thing and it had a small um uh

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a shot of the uh the alleged alien slide

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at an angle well

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a couple of people include one of our

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members of French member uses the name

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NAB later he took it and stretched the

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image just restored to its because it

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was laying on an angle to its proper

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proportion and you could kind of make

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out what it was and it looked you know

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it was it was a body strange looking

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body and

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we started saying well what could this

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be you know is it is it a um is it a

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dummy is it a doll

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um

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is it something like a Fiji mermaid

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where they would take a a monkey and a

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fish and sew it together something like

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that and uh we found some pictures of

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some some mummies uh that that looked

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very similar to this but you know it was

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low resolution so we really couldn't

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tell

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um we had some ideas we you know the and

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there was this elaborate story that that

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it was it was it was um two two

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individuals Bernard

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um

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oh Bernard Ray and Hilda Ray this this

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couple were friends of the Eisenhower's

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and they were given secret access to

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this um to the the alien body from

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Roswell that was the religion you know

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we can never find any real connection

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between the people and and that you know

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this Legend of Eisenhower and everything

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else

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so we weren't able to torpedo it before

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it happened but after it happened you

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know we got a clear resolution picture

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of what they claimed was the alien and

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it was this huge production Richard

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Dolan went to to Mexico City for this

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two-hour however long presentation it

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was and they had some some people to

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claim the biologists that that

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authenticated and say that it was uh

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uh it was probably a reptilian

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um composition and not not hominid as we

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know it

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anyway uh so we got a copy of

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so what was really odd about and I

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should have mentioned this before it

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looked like it was photographed in a

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glass case and there was a little sign

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on it it's like why was it in the

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military institution with the label

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right the CIA is putting a label on it

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yeah yeah so skipping ahead when we got

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a good picture of that label it was um

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it was it was blurry it almost looked

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like it was in a

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um Sanskrit or something but it turned

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out

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um the mint person I mentioned earlier

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now later he took that and used this

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commercially available program called

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smart de blur

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and slowly as he refined it because it

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was kind of a trial on the error method

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to focus on it the words you know

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mummified

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two-year-old boy and eventually we

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learned that this was a New Mexico

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Museum and it was uh it was a Native

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American boy's Mommy

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uh and so all this mystery and Legend

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you know was built around this so that's

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there's a lot more to the story but

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that's that's the core elements so it it

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turned out being a photo of an exhibit

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in a museum exactly that's interesting

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and more like not so much almost a

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roadside Museum I mean a park right you

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know I like the that there was a lot of

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like um you know teaser trailers leading

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up to in a lot of fanfare the thing you

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can the best thing you can say about the

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UFO communities it always seems we're on

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the precipice of something really

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exciting

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always and then when uh when the thing

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rolls around to disappoint there's

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something to take its place

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it's true

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also um cut your um you're right up in

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uh Robbie Graham's book

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if people want to check it out that's

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that's pretty much all there right yeah

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yeah

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was asked to write about the Roswell

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slide story for for uh the book it's in

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reframing the debate and it you know

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pretty much go through everything in

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chronological order so uh yeah it's very

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detailed and then at uh the blue Glory

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lines blog I've got the photos that

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document the research that go into it

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and you'll see the actual pictures from

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it so yeah it's it was it was quite a

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yarn and and because it happened in

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Mexico rather than the United States it

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was all over with pretty fast uh Adam

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Dew is a promoter and he had a partner

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um Beeson and they had planned to do a

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documentary and you know merchandise and

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everything and uh you know they were

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violently opposed to our conclusions and

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uh but after that it pretty much dried

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up and and went away and it's so talked

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about these days

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Kurt uh in your experience with this

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subject to what extent is there like

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intent to deceive in these kinds of

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circumstances and to what extent is that

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intention like one or two core people

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who then have a Inner Circle who are

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also misled or is it a larger thing like

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what have you sort of seen consistently

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occurring in this subject

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oh well that's that's pretty complicated

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there there are a lot of people that

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genuinely interested and

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they are propelled by the beliefs that

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they develop and a lot of these beliefs

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are shared by by groups and everything

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and it there's a whole

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you know it's it's they're basically

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you know to some people

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UFOs actually are religion but a lot of

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people that's not so much that but they

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have these certain beliefs that serve as

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tenets of faith and um

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it it drives everything they do and the

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way they interpret the evidence so

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there's

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within that framework they're misled and

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they misled other people

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now on the other hand they're people

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that are uh uh charlatans now right

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fakes a few years ago learned about a

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term for the first time called a Pious

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fraud which you may have heard of it's

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like in the case of a

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in the case of a priest or something

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that fakes a miracle to um

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to help build the faith of the followers

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you know he sincerely believes he's

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doing good and is lying to do so

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it's an important distinction there's

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some people like I think Georgia damski

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who's uh pictured behind me he's uh he

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might be someone like that he had these

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religious these spiritual beliefs and I

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think he used uh ufology to sell the

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message you know so in where he had

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preached before you know this uh

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theosophical type of message

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and it was all spiritual well then the

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the way it was adapted for the Flying

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Saucer audience is the the messenger the

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Divine messenger came in a spaceship

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instead so it was repackaged and it

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reached a lot more people because of how

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popular flying saucers were

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do you think that um Billy Maya is like

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that

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highest fraud

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I don't know uh it's entirely possible

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now I've heard people argue that that

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Meyer and adamski had genuine

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experiences but in order to promote the

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message they host

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so you know I don't necessarily buy that

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00:13:24,050 --> 00:13:21,899
but you know that's that's argument that

280
00:13:25,449 --> 00:13:24,060
people want to find some credibility to

281
00:13:28,370 --> 00:13:25,459
him somewhere

282
00:13:30,590 --> 00:13:28,380
we have a question here from uh Jeff

283
00:13:32,690 --> 00:13:30,600
Knox uh Vancouver guy here uh he says

284
00:13:35,329 --> 00:13:32,700
Ken Kurt uh tell us who is directly

285
00:13:37,610 --> 00:13:35,339
behind him the book okay that was Frank

286
00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:37,620
Scully so you know we've got a you're

287
00:13:42,949 --> 00:13:39,120
out in my head there's Kenneth Arnold

288
00:13:46,009 --> 00:13:42,959
and then there's uh Donald Kehoe Frank

289
00:13:47,569 --> 00:13:46,019
Scully and Georgia damski so they're uh

290
00:13:50,990 --> 00:13:47,579
they're sort of like all founding

291
00:13:53,269 --> 00:13:51,000
fathers of ufology for good and bad

292
00:13:55,310 --> 00:13:53,279
it's interesting if you don't have a you

293
00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:55,320
don't have Ray Palmer in there oh no

294
00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:57,120
that you know we would have to expand it

295
00:14:00,769 --> 00:13:58,800
we'd have to get Charles Ford in there

296
00:14:03,050 --> 00:14:00,779
we would have to get Mead Lane and yep

297
00:14:04,910 --> 00:14:03,060
on and on so this was actually this was

298
00:14:07,610 --> 00:14:04,920
an illustration for a particular article

299
00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:07,620
and and all these guys were tied to UFO

300
00:14:13,190 --> 00:14:10,800
books so that that's the particular

301
00:14:15,050 --> 00:14:13,200
reason for choosing them but yeah there

302
00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:15,060
are many other Cooks in this for the

303
00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:18,000
stew I imagine I mean that's uh that's a

304
00:14:21,889 --> 00:14:20,399
little bit what you go into on um your

305
00:14:23,569 --> 00:14:21,899
second blog right the sauce is the time

306
00:14:25,550 --> 00:14:23,579
for God that's actually the blog that we

307
00:14:27,410 --> 00:14:25,560
connected with kind of the um

308
00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:27,420
the early sightings and stuff and that's

309
00:14:30,949 --> 00:14:29,040
something I've started looking into

310
00:14:33,730 --> 00:14:30,959
really recently so I'm a bit of a novice

311
00:14:36,350 --> 00:14:33,740
for that kind of era especially like

312
00:14:38,990 --> 00:14:36,360
1947. I hear you mention

313
00:14:41,389 --> 00:14:39,000
um Charles Ford and Mead Lane in the 40

314
00:14:45,290 --> 00:14:41,399
in society and stuff like that pre 47

315
00:14:48,650 --> 00:14:45,300
pre polymer citing were there um reports

316
00:14:50,269 --> 00:14:48,660
of saucers back then or was the

317
00:14:55,610 --> 00:14:50,279
description saucer

318
00:15:03,650 --> 00:15:00,250
so there are a few minor examples of of

319
00:15:05,329 --> 00:15:03,660
saucer-like craft but that's the

320
00:15:06,650 --> 00:15:05,339
exception you really have to dig through

321
00:15:09,410 --> 00:15:06,660
and you know people have found a few

322
00:15:11,930 --> 00:15:09,420
that you know I think in the 1800s but

323
00:15:13,970 --> 00:15:11,940
the saucer really came about with with

324
00:15:16,430 --> 00:15:13,980
Kenneth Arnold and the year before

325
00:15:18,530 --> 00:15:16,440
Kenneth Arnold there was a story that

326
00:15:20,269 --> 00:15:18,540
this is connected to me lying his his

327
00:15:20,810 --> 00:15:20,279
group

328
00:15:23,329 --> 00:15:20,820
um

329
00:15:25,850 --> 00:15:23,339
you know over San Diego there was what

330
00:15:27,650 --> 00:15:25,860
was appeared to be a

331
00:15:31,069 --> 00:15:27,660
um

332
00:15:34,970 --> 00:15:31,079
a bat like

333
00:15:36,889 --> 00:15:34,980
or or maybe a a plane with flapping

334
00:15:38,449 --> 00:15:36,899
wings and this you know there was a

335
00:15:41,949 --> 00:15:38,459
there was some kind of astronomical

336
00:15:45,769 --> 00:15:41,959
event that had more people outside and

337
00:15:48,350 --> 00:15:45,779
so there were channelers involved

338
00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:48,360
um and Mark Mark how did we say his name

339
00:15:54,490 --> 00:15:51,600
programmer yeah so he made contact with

340
00:15:57,290 --> 00:15:54,500
with the being actually he made contact

341
00:15:59,150 --> 00:15:57,300
with a spiritual being who seemed to

342
00:16:01,069 --> 00:15:59,160
know about him and said that there were

343
00:16:03,590 --> 00:16:01,079
visitors from another planet more more

344
00:16:05,629 --> 00:16:03,600
actually more like another dimension you

345
00:16:08,269 --> 00:16:05,639
know we'll plan it in another dimension

346
00:16:09,769 --> 00:16:08,279
and that they were here to uh to observe

347
00:16:12,350 --> 00:16:09,779
us but they were afraid to make contact

348
00:16:14,990 --> 00:16:12,360
because we're such a violent species so

349
00:16:17,689 --> 00:16:15,000
so this was a spaceship an alien and

350
00:16:19,970 --> 00:16:17,699
contact story you know almost a year

351
00:16:21,530 --> 00:16:19,980
before Kenneth Arnold's story yeah you

352
00:16:23,269 --> 00:16:21,540
know there were some headlines in the

353
00:16:26,629 --> 00:16:23,279
newspapers that you know a spaceship

354
00:16:28,310 --> 00:16:26,639
cited and that sort of thing but it was

355
00:16:31,790 --> 00:16:28,320
um

356
00:16:33,889 --> 00:16:31,800
well there was a channel involved so you

357
00:16:35,930 --> 00:16:33,899
know I don't depending on your beliefs

358
00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:35,940
how much stock can we put in that so was

359
00:16:41,689 --> 00:16:39,600
that was that um uh did that Saga happen

360
00:16:44,749 --> 00:16:41,699
in California

361
00:16:48,050 --> 00:16:44,759
yes San Diego yeah there's a lot of this

362
00:16:50,930 --> 00:16:48,060
Californian um adamsky as well but many

363
00:16:52,490 --> 00:16:50,940
people are sort of in the the subculture

364
00:16:53,389 --> 00:16:52,500
um the California subculture like the

365
00:16:56,030 --> 00:16:53,399
new age

366
00:16:59,810 --> 00:16:56,040
wave and many of them were influenced by

367
00:17:01,790 --> 00:16:59,820
theosophy weren't they oh absolutely

368
00:17:03,889 --> 00:17:01,800
um so

369
00:17:07,250 --> 00:17:03,899
if you're um

370
00:17:09,230 --> 00:17:07,260
your viewers may not be familiar with um

371
00:17:11,510 --> 00:17:09,240
else spring DeCamp he was a science

372
00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:11,520
fiction author did a lot in historical

373
00:17:14,809 --> 00:17:12,660
work

374
00:17:19,210 --> 00:17:14,819
um may have heard of him from the um

375
00:17:22,549 --> 00:17:19,220
from editing the Conan books in the 50s

376
00:17:25,730 --> 00:17:22,559
so he wrote a book called Lost Comics

377
00:17:29,330 --> 00:17:25,740
which is great it's a lot of it is on

378
00:17:32,030 --> 00:17:29,340
Atlantis and the in some of the other

379
00:17:35,029 --> 00:17:32,040
Legends of lost worlds and things like

380
00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:35,039
that and they're close very close ties

381
00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:38,160
to UFOs in that and he he shows how

382
00:17:44,570 --> 00:17:41,280
theosophy you know helped develop the

383
00:17:46,789 --> 00:17:44,580
legend of Atlantis and you know the

384
00:17:49,250 --> 00:17:46,799
especially the advanced technology

385
00:17:53,029 --> 00:17:49,260
versus version of Atlantis and all

386
00:17:55,310 --> 00:17:53,039
that's very very close to to uh the uh

387
00:17:56,810 --> 00:17:55,320
early UFO beliefs and those same sort of

388
00:17:59,330 --> 00:17:56,820
people

389
00:18:01,669 --> 00:17:59,340
um were early adopters of the

390
00:18:04,130 --> 00:18:01,679
Extraterrestrial hypothesis as it came

391
00:18:06,289 --> 00:18:04,140
to be known now if I could just uh step

392
00:18:08,029 --> 00:18:06,299
in for a second we have Leah in the uh

393
00:18:10,310 --> 00:18:08,039
comments and uh she's saying she just

394
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:10,320
got engaged everybody so that's really

395
00:18:14,930 --> 00:18:12,000
nice she took the night off her domestic

396
00:18:16,250 --> 00:18:14,940
Bliss congratulations yeah that's really

397
00:18:18,289 --> 00:18:16,260
cool

398
00:18:20,270 --> 00:18:18,299
got a bunch of Clone grafts rolling in

399
00:18:22,669 --> 00:18:20,280
here that's nice

400
00:18:26,450 --> 00:18:22,679
just wanted to highlight that thanks all

401
00:18:29,150 --> 00:18:26,460
love you enjoy correct that's nice

402
00:18:30,830 --> 00:18:29,160
awesome okay well okay there's nothing

403
00:18:34,190 --> 00:18:30,840
else to talk about that was such a big

404
00:18:37,010 --> 00:18:34,200
reason yes well actually that's a great

405
00:18:39,230 --> 00:18:37,020
um you uh published uh just was it

406
00:18:43,250 --> 00:18:39,240
yesterday night or this morning a uh

407
00:18:45,350 --> 00:18:43,260
piece about UFO eyewitnesses and um the

408
00:18:47,390 --> 00:18:45,360
way that they should be treated uh would

409
00:18:48,650 --> 00:18:47,400
you mind uh getting into that for a

410
00:18:49,850 --> 00:18:48,660
minute and just sort of summarizing that

411
00:18:52,490 --> 00:18:49,860
for us because I thought it was a pretty

412
00:18:54,590 --> 00:18:52,500
uh good read yeah yeah so Lee is partly

413
00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:54,600
responsible for that I I had been

414
00:18:58,029 --> 00:18:56,160
thinking about this for some time I

415
00:19:01,370 --> 00:18:58,039
found this article

416
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:01,380
in an old muffon Journal by Dr Peter

417
00:19:05,570 --> 00:19:03,360
Rank and and Peter rank was a

418
00:19:07,970 --> 00:19:05,580
radiologist who consulted on the cash

419
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:07,980
Lantern case which is how I became

420
00:19:14,090 --> 00:19:10,799
familiar with him but in this article he

421
00:19:15,770 --> 00:19:14,100
talks about how well in particular he

422
00:19:16,430 --> 00:19:15,780
was

423
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:16,440
um

424
00:19:21,950 --> 00:19:18,960
he was addressing the case of Dr Leonard

425
00:19:25,310 --> 00:19:21,960
Stringfield who before Roswell was

426
00:19:28,370 --> 00:19:25,320
resurrected he was he was uh examining

427
00:19:30,529 --> 00:19:28,380
these stories of Crash retrieval stories

428
00:19:33,289 --> 00:19:30,539
and and referring to a lot of military

429
00:19:35,690 --> 00:19:33,299
Witnesses who claim to have witnessed

430
00:19:37,490 --> 00:19:35,700
things and most of most people weren't

431
00:19:39,890 --> 00:19:37,500
taking it too seriously because all his

432
00:19:43,250 --> 00:19:39,900
Witnesses were Anonymous well one of the

433
00:19:44,570 --> 00:19:43,260
witnesses that was later identified and

434
00:19:47,210 --> 00:19:44,580
maybe the only one turned out to be

435
00:19:48,830 --> 00:19:47,220
Jesse Marcel well that's kind of a side

436
00:19:51,169 --> 00:19:48,840
note so we know at least one of those it

437
00:19:53,690 --> 00:19:51,179
was a real person who was involved in a

438
00:19:58,029 --> 00:19:53,700
flying saucer story to some extent

439
00:20:01,370 --> 00:19:58,039
but so um some of the people criticizing

440
00:20:04,669 --> 00:20:01,380
rank were Stanton Friedman and Bill

441
00:20:06,169 --> 00:20:04,679
Moore author the uh the Roswell uh

442
00:20:09,049 --> 00:20:06,179
incident book

443
00:20:13,970 --> 00:20:09,059
uh Dr rank felt

444
00:20:16,190 --> 00:20:13,980
he's uh spoken in the defense of of uh

445
00:20:17,690 --> 00:20:16,200
uh Stringfield and he said that he

446
00:20:20,270 --> 00:20:17,700
thought it was really important to

447
00:20:24,409 --> 00:20:20,280
respect the anonymity of UFO Witnesses

448
00:20:26,510 --> 00:20:24,419
and that it um their privacy uh this un

449
00:20:28,730 --> 00:20:26,520
you know hadn't had to be protected this

450
00:20:30,350 --> 00:20:28,740
unwanted attention had destroyed some

451
00:20:32,750 --> 00:20:30,360
people's lives and you know including

452
00:20:35,570 --> 00:20:32,760
some of the uh the the policemen who

453
00:20:37,610 --> 00:20:35,580
have reported the the end of times they

454
00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:37,620
uh their names are a matter of public

455
00:20:41,810 --> 00:20:39,840
record the attention that they received

456
00:20:44,029 --> 00:20:41,820
and the ridicule you know destroyed

457
00:20:45,049 --> 00:20:44,039
their careers or you know whether or

458
00:20:46,130 --> 00:20:45,059
they're actually destroying their

459
00:20:47,510 --> 00:20:46,140
careers and they're just so

460
00:20:49,490 --> 00:20:47,520
uncomfortable they didn't feel like they

461
00:20:51,409 --> 00:20:49,500
had the respect their colleagues you

462
00:20:53,029 --> 00:20:51,419
know they left the business so he

463
00:20:53,870 --> 00:20:53,039
thought a way to do it was handle it

464
00:20:55,549 --> 00:20:53,880
like

465
00:21:00,350 --> 00:20:55,559
um

466
00:21:03,350 --> 00:21:00,360
you're treating patients for studies

467
00:21:06,289 --> 00:21:03,360
uh share the information the details of

468
00:21:07,970 --> 00:21:06,299
the case protect you know make keep the

469
00:21:11,029 --> 00:21:07,980
witnesses anonymous

470
00:21:13,070 --> 00:21:11,039
so um you know he he wrote a nice piece

471
00:21:15,409 --> 00:21:13,080
about that which I reprinted the bulk of

472
00:21:18,409 --> 00:21:15,419
and I thought well another benefit of

473
00:21:20,690 --> 00:21:18,419
that is all these people who hoax UFOs

474
00:21:23,890 --> 00:21:20,700
you know for example you're in

475
00:21:26,270 --> 00:21:23,900
georgianomski types they're um

476
00:21:29,390 --> 00:21:26,280
their goal is really to become

477
00:21:32,029 --> 00:21:29,400
celebrities to carry their message and

478
00:21:34,970 --> 00:21:32,039
by you know if they have a story

479
00:21:38,930 --> 00:21:34,980
and they're not given us publicity well

480
00:21:42,890 --> 00:21:38,940
then it it may remove their incentive

481
00:21:45,350 --> 00:21:42,900
for promoting these hoaxes so I I think

482
00:21:47,450 --> 00:21:45,360
you know there's the articles that

483
00:21:49,730 --> 00:21:47,460
decide you can exam you know it

484
00:21:52,730 --> 00:21:49,740
certainly is is more coherent than I'm

485
00:21:55,370 --> 00:21:52,740
trying to recount it now but uh I think

486
00:21:59,149 --> 00:21:55,380
it's a I think it's an interesting thing

487
00:22:01,970 --> 00:21:59,159
to consider that the the other side of

488
00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:01,980
that is there has been a lot of abuse in

489
00:22:06,950 --> 00:22:03,120
the past

490
00:22:08,950 --> 00:22:06,960
with Anonymous and unnamed sources so

491
00:22:11,510 --> 00:22:08,960
you have to make sure that you're

492
00:22:15,830 --> 00:22:11,520
basically have someone who serves as an

493
00:22:18,529 --> 00:22:15,840
editor a trustworthy person that has the

494
00:22:20,330 --> 00:22:18,539
can verify you know has seen the

495
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:20,340
information notice this is a real person

496
00:22:26,149 --> 00:22:23,280
and it's credible so and that's a sticky

497
00:22:27,470 --> 00:22:26,159
point ufology isn't to the point where

498
00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:27,480
it's professional enough where you have

499
00:22:34,190 --> 00:22:29,760
these resources most of the time

500
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:36,169
that's an interesting point and that was

501
00:22:39,590 --> 00:22:37,200
on your

502
00:22:41,210 --> 00:22:39,600
um saucers the time forgot blog this

503
00:22:43,430 --> 00:22:41,220
one's at Blue Blood is that blueberry

504
00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:43,440
Alliance I wanted to Circle back because

505
00:22:46,490 --> 00:22:45,600
we've touched on it a few times do you

506
00:22:48,169 --> 00:22:46,500
want to

507
00:22:49,610 --> 00:22:48,179
um tell us about blue blurry lines and

508
00:22:52,490 --> 00:22:49,620
how you got involved with the Cashland

509
00:22:55,789 --> 00:22:52,500
case I know that uh Luis has got some uh

510
00:22:58,730 --> 00:22:55,799
opinions on that case as well sure well

511
00:23:01,130 --> 00:22:58,740
um okay I'll try to make this this real

512
00:23:05,450 --> 00:23:01,140
quick so that involves my re-entering in

513
00:23:08,029 --> 00:23:05,460
the ufology in 2011. I was a big UFO fan

514
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:08,039
as a kid but you know it was basically a

515
00:23:12,049 --> 00:23:09,600
flavor of entertainment to me you know

516
00:23:13,850 --> 00:23:12,059
the library didn't have a lot of UFO

517
00:23:15,470 --> 00:23:13,860
books I read the ones that I could find

518
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:15,480
and you know other Mysteries and things

519
00:23:22,130 --> 00:23:18,240
like that but I grew disenchanted with

520
00:23:24,909 --> 00:23:22,140
it in 1980 and really didn't return to

521
00:23:28,909 --> 00:23:24,919
it Beyond Watching The X-Files until

522
00:23:32,450 --> 00:23:28,919
2011. I saw this documentary on Gray

523
00:23:37,909 --> 00:23:32,460
Barker called Shades of Gray and in it

524
00:23:41,390 --> 00:23:37,919
was uh James Mosley who was the uh uh he

525
00:23:44,330 --> 00:23:41,400
uh the ufologist who had uh saucer news

526
00:23:47,450 --> 00:23:44,340
in the in the 1950s and 60s and later

527
00:23:49,850 --> 00:23:47,460
had the saucer smear newsletter yeah and

528
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:49,860
he had a real sense of humor about about

529
00:23:56,210 --> 00:23:53,039
the UFO field and uh I got in contact

530
00:24:00,049 --> 00:23:56,220
with him my first contact with the real

531
00:24:01,850 --> 00:24:00,059
live ufologist and uh we became pen pals

532
00:24:03,950 --> 00:24:01,860
and talked to him on the phone a lot and

533
00:24:07,549 --> 00:24:03,960
I wound up being a contributing Editor

534
00:24:10,070 --> 00:24:07,559
to saucer smear and he was the one that

535
00:24:11,330 --> 00:24:10,080
introduced me the cash flanham case and

536
00:24:15,289 --> 00:24:11,340
thought that was one of the most

537
00:24:17,149 --> 00:24:15,299
credible cases ever so I started sending

538
00:24:19,549 --> 00:24:17,159
him information on the case and when I

539
00:24:22,789 --> 00:24:19,559
was doing independent research more than

540
00:24:25,070 --> 00:24:22,799
he could publish and so the blog

541
00:24:28,310 --> 00:24:25,080
eventually grew you know it was a place

542
00:24:33,529 --> 00:24:30,950
that's a good Outlet because I um

543
00:24:35,149 --> 00:24:33,539
in my experience when like uh when I was

544
00:24:36,649 --> 00:24:35,159
researching the Lake Michigan case how

545
00:24:39,529 --> 00:24:36,659
we originally connected

546
00:24:41,149 --> 00:24:39,539
um I never know when to stop you know my

547
00:24:43,010 --> 00:24:41,159
my original point with it was to like

548
00:24:44,990 --> 00:24:43,020
make a make a video or something or get

549
00:24:47,330 --> 00:24:45,000
attention on the case and just like keep

550
00:24:48,890 --> 00:24:47,340
finding more and more and

551
00:24:51,710 --> 00:24:48,900
knowing what to do with that information

552
00:24:54,169 --> 00:24:51,720
and like storing it all and provide

553
00:24:56,029 --> 00:24:54,179
putting it out there's you need a good

554
00:24:58,610 --> 00:24:56,039
outlet for that so maybe a Blog was what

555
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:58,620
I should have done in the first place

556
00:25:02,870 --> 00:25:01,200
we'll give it a try it it really helps

557
00:25:04,190 --> 00:25:02,880
to uh

558
00:25:07,549 --> 00:25:04,200
um

559
00:25:09,409 --> 00:25:07,559
to processing information and to see

560
00:25:12,049 --> 00:25:09,419
this shared you know not maybe not

561
00:25:13,730 --> 00:25:12,059
everyone will read it but you know in

562
00:25:15,770 --> 00:25:13,740
um not so much in the Cash Land room

563
00:25:19,310 --> 00:25:15,780
case but in the saucers that Tom forgot

564
00:25:22,909 --> 00:25:19,320
I'll write about an old ufologist talk

565
00:25:24,769 --> 00:25:22,919
and so occasionally a relative or you

566
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:24,779
know children or grandchildren or Ryan

567
00:25:29,810 --> 00:25:26,880
say oh you know that that was that was

568
00:25:31,909 --> 00:25:29,820
my family I was involved in that and

569
00:25:34,789 --> 00:25:31,919
um in a few instances there's been

570
00:25:37,490 --> 00:25:34,799
additional information surface rarely

571
00:25:39,590 --> 00:25:37,500
but you know it's it's it's an open

572
00:25:40,549 --> 00:25:39,600
channel in case there's anything out

573
00:25:42,470 --> 00:25:40,559
there

574
00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:42,480
well so where do you come out come down

575
00:25:46,669 --> 00:25:43,980
on the case do you think it's as

576
00:25:48,890 --> 00:25:46,679
compelling as uh as mostly did

577
00:25:52,310 --> 00:25:48,900
Cashland room

578
00:25:54,649 --> 00:25:52,320
well that was a real education for me so

579
00:25:57,850 --> 00:25:54,659
um it was uh it was it was investigated

580
00:26:00,409 --> 00:25:57,860
by John schussler who is the deputy

581
00:26:02,810 --> 00:26:00,419
director of mufon later on the the

582
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:02,820
director and a lifelong loan board

583
00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:04,320
member and I think he's only just

584
00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:06,480
recently disassociated from from the

585
00:26:12,169 --> 00:26:08,159
group

586
00:26:15,169 --> 00:26:12,179
and he had a just his background he was

587
00:26:17,090 --> 00:26:15,179
a McDonald Douglas engineer worked on

588
00:26:20,750 --> 00:26:17,100
the space shuttle program

589
00:26:23,210 --> 00:26:20,760
and he was he was also a ufologist and

590
00:26:25,730 --> 00:26:23,220
had a uh besides his involvement in

591
00:26:29,210 --> 00:26:25,740
mufon he had a group called The called

592
00:26:31,909 --> 00:26:29,220
visit the vehicle and investigation

593
00:26:36,110 --> 00:26:31,919
system team something like that anyway

594
00:26:37,430 --> 00:26:36,120
the the the whole mission there was to

595
00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:37,440
uh

596
00:26:43,370 --> 00:26:40,080
well the terminology they use for UFOs

597
00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:43,380
was unidentified spacecraft so they had

598
00:26:48,649 --> 00:26:46,320
already decided up front that what they

599
00:26:51,049 --> 00:26:48,659
were investigating was spacecraft from

600
00:26:52,850 --> 00:26:51,059
other worlds and it was just a matter of

601
00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:52,860
identifying and learning about the

602
00:26:57,409 --> 00:26:55,679
propulsion and things like that so that

603
00:26:59,450 --> 00:26:57,419
you know reflects some of the things we

604
00:27:01,490 --> 00:26:59,460
talked about at the beginning you know

605
00:27:04,250 --> 00:27:01,500
when you're when you've already made up

606
00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:04,260
your mind it it shapes how you interpret

607
00:27:08,810 --> 00:27:06,960
the evidence yeah so he got a he got a

608
00:27:13,070 --> 00:27:08,820
hold of the case

609
00:27:16,909 --> 00:27:13,080
um after uh afro uh the aerial

610
00:27:21,470 --> 00:27:16,919
phenomenon research organization and um

611
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:21,480
uh Tucson Arizona had was unable to

612
00:27:26,390 --> 00:27:24,240
investigate it properly and he lived in

613
00:27:29,210 --> 00:27:26,400
Houston the Cashland case was just

614
00:27:31,850 --> 00:27:29,220
outside of Houston so he was close

615
00:27:34,909 --> 00:27:31,860
enough to investigate he took over the

616
00:27:38,149 --> 00:27:34,919
case and he really shaped

617
00:27:41,090 --> 00:27:38,159
the way everything was reported

618
00:27:43,850 --> 00:27:41,100
um he he described the women as

619
00:27:47,750 --> 00:27:43,860
upstanding members of the society and

620
00:27:50,930 --> 00:27:47,760
and the witnesses as um

621
00:27:53,570 --> 00:27:50,940
having run a successful business and

622
00:27:54,890 --> 00:27:53,580
everything whereas someone

623
00:27:57,049 --> 00:27:54,900
did um

624
00:27:59,090 --> 00:27:57,059
say like the typical press may have said

625
00:28:01,490 --> 00:27:59,100
well you know here were you know some

626
00:28:04,909 --> 00:28:01,500
couple of middle-aged redneck women so

627
00:28:07,370 --> 00:28:04,919
you know he he always portrayed it

628
00:28:09,470 --> 00:28:07,380
and um you know he dressed things up

629
00:28:12,169 --> 00:28:09,480
like a doll house you know and he so he

630
00:28:14,510 --> 00:28:12,179
it was almost like he was given a an

631
00:28:17,870 --> 00:28:14,520
idealized Hollywood version of the case

632
00:28:19,010 --> 00:28:17,880
from from the very start

633
00:28:21,169 --> 00:28:19,020
um

634
00:28:24,230 --> 00:28:21,179
so I read his book

635
00:28:26,990 --> 00:28:24,240
uh in it at the time it was very hard to

636
00:28:28,430 --> 00:28:27,000
find an out of print uh it was it was

637
00:28:30,230 --> 00:28:28,440
self-published you know I don't know

638
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:30,240
what maybe a thousand two copies were

639
00:28:36,049 --> 00:28:32,640
print printed and circulated chiefly

640
00:28:38,750 --> 00:28:36,059
through um uh mufon and UFO conferences

641
00:28:40,850 --> 00:28:38,760
so I found the copy and read it and I

642
00:28:42,830 --> 00:28:40,860
I'd already studied the publicly

643
00:28:44,330 --> 00:28:42,840
available information on it and it was

644
00:28:46,669 --> 00:28:44,340
kind of aghast when I read the book

645
00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:46,679
because you know it was a lot of things

646
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:50,159
from his case files and there were all

647
00:28:56,570 --> 00:28:54,000
these inconsistencies and the it was

648
00:28:59,149 --> 00:28:56,580
just I thought wait a minute this is

649
00:29:02,930 --> 00:28:59,159
this is I felt like it was a manipulated

650
00:29:04,909 --> 00:29:02,940
story and to me it just the the beliefs

651
00:29:07,130 --> 00:29:04,919
I had about the case the faith that I

652
00:29:09,230 --> 00:29:07,140
had put into his work and everything

653
00:29:12,130 --> 00:29:09,240
else before that kind of crumbled and

654
00:29:14,990 --> 00:29:12,140
then the more I learned the the more

655
00:29:17,269 --> 00:29:15,000
disappointed I found and

656
00:29:20,029 --> 00:29:17,279
and you know ultimately I felt like you

657
00:29:22,010 --> 00:29:20,039
know we will probably never know the the

658
00:29:24,169 --> 00:29:22,020
real truth about the case what because

659
00:29:27,350 --> 00:29:24,179
we we've got this

660
00:29:29,330 --> 00:29:27,360
fairy tale that we've been told in the

661
00:29:32,090 --> 00:29:29,340
time the distance

662
00:29:34,610 --> 00:29:32,100
um and it's like well if the case the

663
00:29:38,029 --> 00:29:34,620
case is now indistinguishable from from

664
00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:38,039
a hoax so that

665
00:29:47,830 --> 00:29:44,750
in particular but I think a ufologist

666
00:29:51,470 --> 00:29:47,840
can have this effect on an investigation

667
00:29:54,610 --> 00:29:51,480
you know they it's it's

668
00:29:58,370 --> 00:29:54,620
you know you're you're seeing basically

669
00:29:59,690 --> 00:29:58,380
their uh painting of the events and not

670
00:30:02,029 --> 00:29:59,700
the picture of what actually happened

671
00:30:06,169 --> 00:30:02,039
not a photograph that's a good way to

672
00:30:09,230 --> 00:30:06,179
put it now you mentioned um afro uh

673
00:30:11,750 --> 00:30:09,240
earlier wasn't wasn't Rick Doty kind of

674
00:30:14,649 --> 00:30:11,760
uh feeding information via Bill Moore

675
00:30:18,350 --> 00:30:14,659
into April about this case in particular

676
00:30:19,190 --> 00:30:18,360
uh well yes not not just that case but

677
00:30:24,409 --> 00:30:19,200
yes

678
00:30:30,710 --> 00:30:27,409
I'm pretty sure he was uh feeding them

679
00:30:34,850 --> 00:30:30,720
an early version of um

680
00:30:37,730 --> 00:30:34,860
uh the the myth that it was a secret

681
00:30:42,710 --> 00:30:37,740
government aircraft and he laid the the

682
00:30:47,210 --> 00:30:42,720
UFO was uh maybe was flown from uh

683
00:30:50,570 --> 00:30:47,220
from Texas from out west later realized

684
00:30:52,490 --> 00:30:50,580
to Area 51 as a point of origin and then

685
00:30:56,990 --> 00:30:52,500
the later refinement on that was that it

686
00:31:00,289 --> 00:30:57,000
was a a Bible Azar Style Style alien

687
00:31:02,090 --> 00:31:00,299
reproduction vehicle which either and

688
00:31:05,590 --> 00:31:02,100
and then it varied as to whether or not

689
00:31:09,430 --> 00:31:05,600
it was a uh actually the the airframe

690
00:31:12,169 --> 00:31:09,440
from the aliens with our nuclear engine

691
00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:12,179
and then it malfunctioned so you know

692
00:31:16,730 --> 00:31:13,440
there was there were some tall tales

693
00:31:18,470 --> 00:31:16,740
about that he also claimed

694
00:31:19,250 --> 00:31:18,480
um numerous

695
00:31:20,289 --> 00:31:19,260
um

696
00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:20,299
foreign

697
00:31:25,370 --> 00:31:23,279
things in air about who is involved how

698
00:31:27,830 --> 00:31:25,380
many people are involved who is you know

699
00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:27,840
tested for radiation and he also claimed

700
00:31:34,130 --> 00:31:30,000
that the the that the Witnesses were

701
00:31:36,409 --> 00:31:34,140
secretly receiving uh funding are are

702
00:31:38,750 --> 00:31:36,419
some kind of compensation and probably

703
00:31:41,210 --> 00:31:38,760
treatment for their injury and that was

704
00:31:43,190 --> 00:31:41,220
cloudy not true that was there the

705
00:31:46,010 --> 00:31:43,200
witness's entire motivation for coming

706
00:31:48,409 --> 00:31:46,020
forward and continuing to speak about it

707
00:31:51,049 --> 00:31:48,419
over the years is because they felt like

708
00:31:53,029 --> 00:31:51,059
something was owed to them you know so

709
00:31:56,110 --> 00:31:53,039
that was that was one big hole in this

710
00:31:57,850 --> 00:31:56,120
story but yeah uh and donate to this day

711
00:32:00,889 --> 00:31:57,860
still

712
00:32:02,450 --> 00:32:00,899
one of his

713
00:32:03,529 --> 00:32:02,460
um you let him talk for any length of

714
00:32:05,210 --> 00:32:03,539
time and he'll talk about his

715
00:32:08,450 --> 00:32:05,220
involvement or his knowledge of the Cash

716
00:32:10,430 --> 00:32:08,460
lottery and I I haven't found a shred of

717
00:32:12,190 --> 00:32:10,440
truth and the things that he says about

718
00:32:16,130 --> 00:32:12,200
it

719
00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:16,140
you talk about the um Iranian hostage um

720
00:32:20,630 --> 00:32:18,559
connection that you found or the

721
00:32:23,029 --> 00:32:20,640
possibility of the

722
00:32:25,250 --> 00:32:23,039
well I wasn't the first person to

723
00:32:28,430 --> 00:32:25,260
discover this I mean

724
00:32:30,669 --> 00:32:28,440
and I don't mean to say discover uh it's

725
00:32:34,909 --> 00:32:30,679
the um

726
00:32:38,090 --> 00:32:34,919
the incident took place while the

727
00:32:41,630 --> 00:32:38,100
hostages were held in Iran and when

728
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:41,640
that's 79 or 78 through 80. I guess it

729
00:32:47,330 --> 00:32:44,399
was you know 79 to 80.

730
00:32:50,570 --> 00:32:47,340
and there was a there was a helicopter

731
00:32:53,870 --> 00:32:50,580
mission that was launched that failed

732
00:32:56,570 --> 00:32:53,880
and there was a second one that uh was

733
00:32:58,490 --> 00:32:56,580
planned and it involved helicopters some

734
00:33:02,029 --> 00:32:58,500
of the type that were reported in the

735
00:33:02,630 --> 00:33:02,039
cash bottom case and they trained

736
00:33:06,350 --> 00:33:02,640
um

737
00:33:08,810 --> 00:33:06,360
from actually from Area 51 which got in

738
00:33:12,190 --> 00:33:08,820
the newspapers a little bit because of

739
00:33:16,549 --> 00:33:12,200
the connection with the uh the rescue

740
00:33:18,190 --> 00:33:16,559
and but they they were training in the

741
00:33:21,049 --> 00:33:18,200
uh probably

742
00:33:24,769 --> 00:33:21,059
spring or at least the summer months

743
00:33:27,289 --> 00:33:24,779
maybe into fall in 1980 before the

744
00:33:29,450 --> 00:33:27,299
incident and including places in Texas

745
00:33:32,330 --> 00:33:29,460
so

746
00:33:33,889 --> 00:33:32,340
they were now in the cash flow case

747
00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:33,899
which I skipped around actually

748
00:33:37,789 --> 00:33:36,240
describing it but the UFO was seen by

749
00:33:38,870 --> 00:33:37,799
the witnesses when they were out on the

750
00:33:41,149 --> 00:33:38,880
road

751
00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:41,159
um they were driving home from they had

752
00:33:45,230 --> 00:33:42,720
looked for a bingo game couldn't find

753
00:33:47,210 --> 00:33:45,240
one had dinner at a diner at a nearby

754
00:33:49,130 --> 00:33:47,220
City or driving back home to Dayton they

755
00:33:51,409 --> 00:33:49,140
were actually close to Huffman Texas

756
00:33:54,710 --> 00:33:51,419
which is a small town and then we're

757
00:33:57,049 --> 00:33:54,720
along this very sparsely populated Road

758
00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:57,059
you know it's described as deserted

759
00:34:02,630 --> 00:33:59,760
which is a exaggeration anyway they saw

760
00:34:05,210 --> 00:34:02,640
this bright object that was huge bigger

761
00:34:07,730 --> 00:34:05,220
than a water tower they said and they

762
00:34:10,070 --> 00:34:07,740
stopped the car and they felt Heat and

763
00:34:12,050 --> 00:34:10,080
the light was incredible and they

764
00:34:14,089 --> 00:34:12,060
initially could not describe it because

765
00:34:17,570 --> 00:34:14,099
it was it was blinding

766
00:34:21,050 --> 00:34:17,580
uh lit up the whole uh area around them

767
00:34:21,829 --> 00:34:21,060
and it made a huge noise and then as it

768
00:34:24,169 --> 00:34:21,839
left

769
00:34:26,270 --> 00:34:24,179
helicopters started flying in and they

770
00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:26,280
eventually stopped at a location a

771
00:34:30,409 --> 00:34:28,260
couple of locations along the way and

772
00:34:33,050 --> 00:34:30,419
they said they saw 23 helicopters most

773
00:34:35,149 --> 00:34:33,060
of which were double Road or helicopters

774
00:34:40,149 --> 00:34:35,159
which later they identify from pictures

775
00:34:43,369 --> 00:34:40,159
identified as Chinook helicopters and

776
00:34:45,470 --> 00:34:43,379
don't the uh they thought they might

777
00:34:48,649 --> 00:34:45,480
have been Air Force helicopters the Army

778
00:34:50,990 --> 00:34:48,659
was operating those type of helicopters

779
00:34:53,510 --> 00:34:51,000
some of those helicopters were used in

780
00:34:56,930 --> 00:34:53,520
those training missions for this second

781
00:34:59,930 --> 00:34:56,940
planned Iran hostage mission

782
00:35:03,410 --> 00:34:59,940
it happened to have been on

783
00:35:06,589 --> 00:35:03,420
the houses were released on when

784
00:35:09,290 --> 00:35:06,599
President Reagan was inaugurated in 1980

785
00:35:12,050 --> 00:35:09,300
and so that mission never took place and

786
00:35:14,089 --> 00:35:12,060
it already had been

787
00:35:16,130 --> 00:35:14,099
um I think that they knew something was

788
00:35:19,310 --> 00:35:16,140
happening and it was called off in the

789
00:35:22,370 --> 00:35:19,320
in the um the Cashland case took a place

790
00:35:26,089 --> 00:35:22,380
on December 29 1980 and between

791
00:35:28,190 --> 00:35:26,099
Christmas and New Year's and basically

792
00:35:32,750 --> 00:35:28,200
the the military bases were on a

793
00:35:36,349 --> 00:35:32,760
skeleton crew so if it was as some

794
00:35:38,569 --> 00:35:36,359
people suggest a military exercise it it

795
00:35:41,150 --> 00:35:38,579
wasn't from a regular base it would have

796
00:35:43,670 --> 00:35:41,160
it be drawn from Special Forces and

797
00:35:46,370 --> 00:35:43,680
teams and each helicopter would have to

798
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:46,380
have a crew and each helicopter would

799
00:35:50,750 --> 00:35:48,720
have a crew of people fueling it and

800
00:35:53,210 --> 00:35:50,760
mechanics getting granny so it would

801
00:35:54,650 --> 00:35:53,220
have to be a huge undertaking if there

802
00:35:56,890 --> 00:35:54,660
were you know if there were 23

803
00:35:58,849 --> 00:35:56,900
helicopters you know you're you're

804
00:36:01,730 --> 00:35:58,859
easily into

805
00:36:03,710 --> 00:36:01,740
100 or 200 people that would have known

806
00:36:08,030 --> 00:36:03,720
about it to equip it and fly it and

807
00:36:09,290 --> 00:36:08,040
things like that refuel it so it's a you

808
00:36:10,910 --> 00:36:09,300
know it's it's

809
00:36:12,589 --> 00:36:10,920
pretty unbelievable the number of

810
00:36:14,930 --> 00:36:12,599
helicopters when you get get the number

811
00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:14,940
of people

812
00:36:21,950 --> 00:36:19,200
but yes the the Army did own the

813
00:36:23,810 --> 00:36:21,960
equipment in question but it's just very

814
00:36:26,329 --> 00:36:23,820
unlikely that

815
00:36:29,569 --> 00:36:26,339
they could have been activated and

816
00:36:32,810 --> 00:36:29,579
centered the the location in time

817
00:36:34,910 --> 00:36:32,820
um so it's

818
00:36:38,569 --> 00:36:36,410
you know that's one of the reasons it

819
00:36:40,370 --> 00:36:38,579
remains a mystery I mean there's never

820
00:36:42,410 --> 00:36:40,380
been any proof that helicopters are

821
00:36:44,990 --> 00:36:42,420
actually involved and some ufologists

822
00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:45,000
didn't even spun that some even at the

823
00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:45,839
time

824
00:36:51,770 --> 00:36:48,720
um like like Bill English of Afro who

825
00:36:53,450 --> 00:36:51,780
was uh not one of the more credible

826
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:53,460
ufologists he

827
00:37:00,349 --> 00:36:56,640
he suggested that the helicopters were

828
00:37:03,849 --> 00:37:00,359
actually UFOs or a projection from the

829
00:37:06,589 --> 00:37:03,859
UFOs to provide cover and camouflage

830
00:37:09,230 --> 00:37:06,599
and then something not only a couple of

831
00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:09,240
notches different from that when when uh

832
00:37:16,430 --> 00:37:12,000
when the search was made

833
00:37:18,410 --> 00:37:16,440
uh the fund for UFO research which uh

834
00:37:20,030 --> 00:37:18,420
some of you know about your your

835
00:37:20,810 --> 00:37:20,040
listeners I'm sure

836
00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:20,820
um

837
00:37:25,730 --> 00:37:23,520
was it

838
00:37:27,530 --> 00:37:25,740
they've laid out funds and supported UFO

839
00:37:30,050 --> 00:37:27,540
research one of the projects they funded

840
00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:30,060
was uh a search for the helicopters in

841
00:37:34,910 --> 00:37:32,400
the Cashland or mention it Alan Hendry

842
00:37:39,230 --> 00:37:34,920
of the center for UFO studies understudy

843
00:37:41,630 --> 00:37:39,240
to Dr heineck he uh now this is done by

844
00:37:45,410 --> 00:37:41,640
telephone but he checked every

845
00:37:47,510 --> 00:37:45,420
every base you know uh joke after face

846
00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:47,520
within range all over and could find

847
00:37:52,370 --> 00:37:50,640
nothing that corresponded to this and

848
00:37:54,650 --> 00:37:52,380
other people tried later there was

849
00:37:57,290 --> 00:37:54,660
investigation by the uh the Army itself

850
00:37:59,589 --> 00:37:57,300
and they they found that in conclusive

851
00:38:03,170 --> 00:37:59,599
well since no helicopters could be found

852
00:38:05,270 --> 00:38:03,180
that that were involved no people uh Dr

853
00:38:07,250 --> 00:38:05,280
heinek came to believe that that maybe

854
00:38:09,230 --> 00:38:07,260
this was some kind of you know if this

855
00:38:12,829 --> 00:38:09,240
was more of a psychic event maybe this

856
00:38:14,930 --> 00:38:12,839
was like a a holographic projection or

857
00:38:16,430 --> 00:38:14,940
something like that the helicopters were

858
00:38:18,650 --> 00:38:16,440
not physically real

859
00:38:20,990 --> 00:38:18,660
you know this was you know in the in the

860
00:38:23,630 --> 00:38:21,000
late 70s there were a lot of paranormal

861
00:38:26,510 --> 00:38:23,640
type beliefs overlapping with UFOs and

862
00:38:30,290 --> 00:38:26,520
Dr heinek was influenced by by this and

863
00:38:33,770 --> 00:38:30,300
uh John Alexander who is a a comrade of

864
00:38:36,060 --> 00:38:33,780
Robert Bigelow he also holds a similar

865
00:38:36,589 --> 00:38:36,070
similar to belief to that

866
00:38:38,150 --> 00:38:36,599
[Music]

867
00:38:43,849 --> 00:38:38,160
um

868
00:38:49,609 --> 00:38:46,730
another possibility is that

869
00:38:52,130 --> 00:38:49,619
that the event was genuine maybe there

870
00:38:55,670 --> 00:38:52,140
were some helicopters and that the story

871
00:38:58,060 --> 00:38:55,680
was greatly exaggerated by the witnesses

872
00:38:59,870 --> 00:38:58,070
that's that's a possibility

873
00:39:02,810 --> 00:38:59,880
[Music]

874
00:39:04,730 --> 00:39:02,820
yeah Louis you uh usually mentioned to

875
00:39:06,829 --> 00:39:04,740
the uh the claims of radiation sickness

876
00:39:08,990 --> 00:39:06,839
as well

877
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:09,000
so um that it could not have been

878
00:39:13,430 --> 00:39:11,040
ionizing radiation because it would have

879
00:39:15,710 --> 00:39:13,440
if they had um experienced those

880
00:39:17,870 --> 00:39:15,720
symptoms that quickly and to that extent

881
00:39:20,870 --> 00:39:17,880
they would have inevitably died

882
00:39:26,270 --> 00:39:24,770
Medicare suffered hair loss and some in

883
00:39:28,370 --> 00:39:26,280
some accounts

884
00:39:30,710 --> 00:39:28,380
later accounts she's saying that it

885
00:39:32,450 --> 00:39:30,720
happened the same night but as it was

886
00:39:34,970 --> 00:39:32,460
originally reported and we have enough

887
00:39:36,829 --> 00:39:34,980
documentation to know that it

888
00:39:40,069 --> 00:39:36,839
it was about two weeks after the event

889
00:39:43,370 --> 00:39:40,079
and it was diagnosed as alopecia erata

890
00:39:46,730 --> 00:39:43,380
and that's

891
00:39:50,450 --> 00:39:46,740
that that's not that uncommon

892
00:39:52,550 --> 00:39:50,460
she had other skin problems and things

893
00:39:56,630 --> 00:39:52,560
she had blood tests done at the hospital

894
00:39:57,770 --> 00:39:56,640
and they didn't show sides of ionizing

895
00:39:58,849 --> 00:39:57,780
radiation

896
00:40:02,510 --> 00:39:58,859
so

897
00:40:05,690 --> 00:40:02,520
if whatever caused their health problems

898
00:40:09,250 --> 00:40:05,700
came from the UFO it wasn't because of a

899
00:40:11,930 --> 00:40:09,260
malfunctioning nuclear engine we can

900
00:40:18,069 --> 00:40:11,940
possibly eliminate that

901
00:40:24,349 --> 00:40:21,589
ripped their local government and

902
00:40:26,770 --> 00:40:24,359
the Texas Department of Health radiation

903
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:26,780
Bureau went out to check the location

904
00:40:32,270 --> 00:40:29,760
and so one odd thing about that was the

905
00:40:35,390 --> 00:40:32,280
uh the witnesses and John Schuster on

906
00:40:38,329 --> 00:40:35,400
their behalf were unable to pinpoint the

907
00:40:40,190 --> 00:40:38,339
exact location where the event took

908
00:40:42,109 --> 00:40:40,200
place and you read any of the stories

909
00:40:44,270 --> 00:40:42,119
that schusters written about it and he

910
00:40:47,089 --> 00:40:44,280
says they did locate it and they they

911
00:40:48,710 --> 00:40:47,099
went there and photographed it but when

912
00:40:50,210 --> 00:40:48,720
when they were telling a government body

913
00:40:51,829 --> 00:40:50,220
that was investigating and trying to

914
00:40:54,530 --> 00:40:51,839
help the witnesses they said they

915
00:40:56,510 --> 00:40:54,540
couldn't it was only only two landmarks

916
00:40:59,870 --> 00:40:56,520
it was between a beer joint and a

917
00:41:01,609 --> 00:40:59,880
highway sign of some kind so anyway the

918
00:41:03,770 --> 00:41:01,619
the Texas Department of Health went up

919
00:41:07,130 --> 00:41:03,780
and down the road with a geiger counter

920
00:41:10,609 --> 00:41:07,140
I know Tracy of ionizing radiation you

921
00:41:13,190 --> 00:41:10,619
know admittedly this would have been in

922
00:41:15,530 --> 00:41:13,200
uh the event itself you know is at the

923
00:41:19,130 --> 00:41:15,540
end of December and then the

924
00:41:23,150 --> 00:41:19,140
investigation was in I think that was in

925
00:41:25,069 --> 00:41:23,160
early September of 1981. so but there

926
00:41:27,410 --> 00:41:25,079
should have still been some traces of

927
00:41:29,450 --> 00:41:27,420
radioactivity had there been some even

928
00:41:31,670 --> 00:41:29,460
if it had faded

929
00:41:35,210 --> 00:41:31,680
what about Steve's question there about

930
00:41:37,790 --> 00:41:35,220
if any public comments from family or

931
00:41:39,609 --> 00:41:37,800
friends of Betty and Vicki about the

932
00:41:42,349 --> 00:41:39,619
case have those being made

933
00:41:44,569 --> 00:41:42,359
there's there's been a few

934
00:41:46,849 --> 00:41:44,579
um there was a um

935
00:41:49,670 --> 00:41:46,859
there was a book written by a gentleman

936
00:41:52,130 --> 00:41:49,680
and it was uh like angels and Aliens it

937
00:41:54,890 --> 00:41:52,140
was very it was a real spiritual take on

938
00:41:57,589 --> 00:41:54,900
and he had he had called the family and

939
00:41:59,870 --> 00:41:57,599
uh he he didn't quote them directly he

940
00:42:02,630 --> 00:41:59,880
he said that in the people that he spoke

941
00:42:03,970 --> 00:42:02,640
to believe that it was the the words

942
00:42:07,670 --> 00:42:03,980
were actually

943
00:42:10,970 --> 00:42:07,680
radiation from an atomic plane or words

944
00:42:14,030 --> 00:42:10,980
to that effect so you know they they

945
00:42:16,730 --> 00:42:14,040
believe as the witnesses have said this

946
00:42:19,130 --> 00:42:16,740
this was Vicki landrum's family that um

947
00:42:20,930 --> 00:42:19,140
that it was a government product project

948
00:42:23,690 --> 00:42:20,940
secret government project the

949
00:42:24,890 --> 00:42:23,700
malfunction and leaked radiation

950
00:42:27,230 --> 00:42:24,900
um

951
00:42:29,270 --> 00:42:27,240
Betty Cash's daughter has appeared in a

952
00:42:31,910 --> 00:42:29,280
couple of documentaries

953
00:42:33,109 --> 00:42:31,920
she's she's supportive of her mother's

954
00:42:35,569 --> 00:42:33,119
story

955
00:42:40,430 --> 00:42:37,849
um has

956
00:42:44,089 --> 00:42:40,440
the the few that I can think of are all

957
00:42:45,829 --> 00:42:44,099
supportive so there's not uh now I've

958
00:42:47,690 --> 00:42:45,839
seen I've seen some new stories that

959
00:42:50,510 --> 00:42:47,700
were written in the 80s around the time

960
00:42:51,530 --> 00:42:50,520
the town and this is the time of the

961
00:42:52,730 --> 00:42:51,540
events

962
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:52,740
there's some people that hadn't even

963
00:42:58,250 --> 00:42:55,440
heard of the event and some others just

964
00:43:00,470 --> 00:42:58,260
found found it unbelievable you know so

965
00:43:02,450 --> 00:43:00,480
there's there was there was the people

966
00:43:05,349 --> 00:43:02,460
who were not as close to the family some

967
00:43:10,130 --> 00:43:05,359
of them were into things

968
00:43:11,510 --> 00:43:10,140
even if it was a little radiation there

969
00:43:12,890 --> 00:43:11,520
was no like significant radiation

970
00:43:15,290 --> 00:43:12,900
exposure or

971
00:43:16,490 --> 00:43:15,300
um you know residues at the site

972
00:43:17,809 --> 00:43:16,500
wherever the

973
00:43:20,390 --> 00:43:17,819
thing happened

974
00:43:21,650 --> 00:43:20,400
could it have been like a Nova

975
00:43:24,109 --> 00:43:21,660
um linked

976
00:43:29,390 --> 00:43:24,119
technological like a

977
00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:29,400
sighting of that like the Nova um area

978
00:43:34,849 --> 00:43:32,880
well the Nevada Test Site

979
00:43:36,829 --> 00:43:34,859
yeah so

980
00:43:40,370 --> 00:43:36,839
I know some of what the lighter to what

981
00:43:42,470 --> 00:43:40,380
nerva stands for nuclear energy

982
00:43:43,510 --> 00:43:42,480
beyond that I don't know but basically

983
00:43:46,930 --> 00:43:43,520
they were trying to build a

984
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:46,940
nuclear-powered air uh a new

985
00:43:51,170 --> 00:43:49,200
nuclear-powered airplane at one point if

986
00:43:54,290 --> 00:43:51,180
Stan Friedman actually worked on that

987
00:43:56,150 --> 00:43:54,300
and he said that it was unsuccessful and

988
00:43:58,910 --> 00:43:56,160
one of the things was that the the

989
00:44:03,290 --> 00:43:58,920
shielding that was required to protect

990
00:44:05,390 --> 00:44:03,300
the uh the the crew was was so heavy

991
00:44:06,950 --> 00:44:05,400
that it made it impractical that was

992
00:44:09,530 --> 00:44:06,960
that was one of the things now we do

993
00:44:11,630 --> 00:44:09,540
have nuclear submarines but airplanes as

994
00:44:12,530 --> 00:44:11,640
far as we know never

995
00:44:15,290 --> 00:44:12,540
um

996
00:44:18,290 --> 00:44:15,300
you know we're never viable so I think

997
00:44:21,349 --> 00:44:18,300
that that that's very unlikely and you

998
00:44:23,569 --> 00:44:21,359
know so then we have to talk about the

999
00:44:25,190 --> 00:44:23,579
uh there are a lot of details about this

1000
00:44:27,770 --> 00:44:25,200
case we could do the whole show on this

1001
00:44:30,349 --> 00:44:27,780
but you know I'll go to go to a few

1002
00:44:31,150 --> 00:44:30,359
things on this so

1003
00:44:32,770 --> 00:44:31,160
um

1004
00:44:37,309 --> 00:44:32,780
whenever

1005
00:44:38,630 --> 00:44:37,319
the the U.S military does use does not

1006
00:44:42,829 --> 00:44:38,640
build

1007
00:44:45,290 --> 00:44:42,839
cool flying projects and hot rods

1008
00:44:47,990 --> 00:44:45,300
just because they can almost every time

1009
00:44:50,329 --> 00:44:48,000
there's a contract it's to serve a

1010
00:44:52,990 --> 00:44:50,339
particular purpose like the U2 was or

1011
00:44:56,870 --> 00:44:53,000
the um the uh

1012
00:44:59,150 --> 00:44:56,880
SR-71 or you know even the the Spy

1013
00:45:00,349 --> 00:44:59,160
satellites and the the balloons and all

1014
00:45:03,050 --> 00:45:00,359
these these projects they have a

1015
00:45:05,690 --> 00:45:03,060
specific job in mind uh you know the

1016
00:45:07,370 --> 00:45:05,700
stealth bomber all that and sometimes by

1017
00:45:10,430 --> 00:45:07,380
the time

1018
00:45:13,250 --> 00:45:10,440
typically there's about a 10-year

1019
00:45:15,530 --> 00:45:13,260
development from you know concept to

1020
00:45:17,390 --> 00:45:15,540
prototype and sometimes you know it's

1021
00:45:22,250 --> 00:45:17,400
longer than that before working working

1022
00:45:24,950 --> 00:45:22,260
field model is is is gone done so if the

1023
00:45:27,410 --> 00:45:24,960
Cashland or UFO was a government project

1024
00:45:30,230 --> 00:45:27,420
you know we have to ask what was it

1025
00:45:33,410 --> 00:45:30,240
being made for and you know what purpose

1026
00:45:35,089 --> 00:45:33,420
did it serve you know who you know where

1027
00:45:36,650 --> 00:45:35,099
was it built who flew it all these

1028
00:45:40,130 --> 00:45:36,660
things and then

1029
00:45:43,270 --> 00:45:40,140
almost everything that has ever been

1030
00:45:45,950 --> 00:45:43,280
built has eventually been Declassified

1031
00:45:48,589 --> 00:45:45,960
or there have been leaks and sometimes

1032
00:45:50,630 --> 00:45:48,599
it's been exposed because of deployment

1033
00:45:53,569 --> 00:45:50,640
it's been used somewhere it's been cited

1034
00:45:56,030 --> 00:45:53,579
and then we learned about it so I think

1035
00:45:59,750 --> 00:45:56,040
all these things kind of argue

1036
00:46:03,829 --> 00:45:59,760
against the reality of the UFO as a

1037
00:46:08,690 --> 00:46:05,210
it's a good point

1038
00:46:11,450 --> 00:46:08,700
I mean we can clearly see with this case

1039
00:46:13,670 --> 00:46:11,460
um as you put it it gets distracted the

1040
00:46:15,650 --> 00:46:13,680
waters get muddied over and over each

1041
00:46:17,150 --> 00:46:15,660
you know enthusiastic you fall just

1042
00:46:19,309 --> 00:46:17,160
comes and paints their own picture and

1043
00:46:20,210 --> 00:46:19,319
they all kind of get layered on top of

1044
00:46:22,250 --> 00:46:20,220
each other

1045
00:46:25,250 --> 00:46:22,260
um do you see that as an issue with a

1046
00:46:29,150 --> 00:46:25,260
lot of old cases just Waters being too

1047
00:46:34,730 --> 00:46:31,730
yes I think I think that's a big big

1048
00:46:36,650 --> 00:46:34,740
problem with cases particularly ones

1049
00:46:38,809 --> 00:46:36,660
that have

1050
00:46:41,569 --> 00:46:38,819
uh in the case of the cash Landing

1051
00:46:44,450 --> 00:46:41,579
placement have have been like owned by

1052
00:46:47,030 --> 00:46:44,460
one ufologist and and part of the reason

1053
00:46:50,569 --> 00:46:47,040
for that was especially during this time

1054
00:46:53,329 --> 00:46:50,579
and even in the 70s that the uh Travis

1055
00:46:56,089 --> 00:46:53,339
Walton cases was uh another one that was

1056
00:46:59,150 --> 00:46:56,099
kind of fought over the kufos the center

1057
00:47:01,970 --> 00:46:59,160
for UFO studies and mufine didn't think

1058
00:47:04,849 --> 00:47:01,980
much of it afro investigated the case

1059
00:47:06,950 --> 00:47:04,859
they were involved in it they were

1060
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:06,960
territorial of it and there were there

1061
00:47:11,630 --> 00:47:09,119
were these turf wars over things over

1062
00:47:13,849 --> 00:47:11,640
cases it would be fighting over it there

1063
00:47:16,849 --> 00:47:13,859
was uh they you know everyone was

1064
00:47:19,190 --> 00:47:16,859
pledging to share information but the

1065
00:47:21,349 --> 00:47:19,200
good cases the interesting cases and the

1066
00:47:24,650 --> 00:47:21,359
ones that sold tickets at conferences

1067
00:47:26,950 --> 00:47:24,660
you know were really rare so that uh

1068
00:47:30,410 --> 00:47:26,960
they would guard this information

1069
00:47:32,750 --> 00:47:30,420
and you know they also had a need to to

1070
00:47:35,089 --> 00:47:32,760
promote it in their newsletters and

1071
00:47:36,230 --> 00:47:35,099
conferences

1072
00:47:39,349 --> 00:47:36,240
um

1073
00:47:40,430 --> 00:47:39,359
uh so another part of

1074
00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:40,440
or

1075
00:47:47,030 --> 00:47:42,800
something that reflects on your question

1076
00:47:54,050 --> 00:47:47,040
is the um the fact that

1077
00:47:57,890 --> 00:47:55,790
and actually I forgot my actual point

1078
00:48:00,290 --> 00:47:57,900
but about belief something really

1079
00:48:01,790 --> 00:48:00,300
curious about the cash planner case is

1080
00:48:04,010 --> 00:48:01,800
that there was this feedback cycle

1081
00:48:06,050 --> 00:48:04,020
because John schustler because of his

1082
00:48:08,450 --> 00:48:06,060
reputation as a NASA scientist he would

1083
00:48:10,370 --> 00:48:08,460
investigate and he would take Vicky

1084
00:48:12,410 --> 00:48:10,380
Lander to the to the approximate

1085
00:48:15,170 --> 00:48:12,420
location where they thought it was he

1086
00:48:17,270 --> 00:48:15,180
said so how far was it and she said oh

1087
00:48:20,329 --> 00:48:17,280
from about here to there and so he would

1088
00:48:23,089 --> 00:48:20,339
take take measure or Pace it off he said

1089
00:48:24,890 --> 00:48:23,099
okay it's uh whatever it is 200 yards so

1090
00:48:28,670 --> 00:48:24,900
then the next time she's at would ask

1091
00:48:31,490 --> 00:48:28,680
she would say well it was 200 yards so

1092
00:48:33,410 --> 00:48:31,500
the inter he would feed you know he

1093
00:48:35,809 --> 00:48:33,420
would interpret the information

1094
00:48:37,309 --> 00:48:35,819
he was an authority figure she would

1095
00:48:39,950 --> 00:48:37,319
accept it

1096
00:48:43,609 --> 00:48:39,960
um and he produced this homogenized

1097
00:48:45,589 --> 00:48:43,619
version of events uh Colby Landrum who

1098
00:48:47,690 --> 00:48:45,599
was almost seven at the time at the

1099
00:48:49,550 --> 00:48:47,700
internet he did he thought that the

1100
00:48:52,190 --> 00:48:49,560
object was diamond shaped the women said

1101
00:48:55,730 --> 00:48:52,200
they couldn't describe it well

1102
00:48:57,650 --> 00:48:55,740
after in after the first stories of the

1103
00:48:59,569 --> 00:48:57,660
press well he had some definite

1104
00:49:01,250 --> 00:48:59,579
information made me saw it better than

1105
00:49:03,890 --> 00:49:01,260
they could so they started describing

1106
00:49:06,069 --> 00:49:03,900
his diamond shape so the story changed

1107
00:49:08,150 --> 00:49:06,079
and it was almost as if

1108
00:49:10,370 --> 00:49:08,160
they um

1109
00:49:12,950 --> 00:49:10,380
they read their own stories about them

1110
00:49:13,990 --> 00:49:12,960
and it shaped how they told it from then

1111
00:49:16,490 --> 00:49:14,000
on

1112
00:49:18,770 --> 00:49:16,500
absolutely I mean I know the case as a

1113
00:49:20,510 --> 00:49:18,780
diamond-shaped craft coming down and

1114
00:49:22,250 --> 00:49:20,520
burning these women in the car you know

1115
00:49:24,470 --> 00:49:22,260
I mean I know it from Unsolved Mysteries

1116
00:49:27,230 --> 00:49:24,480
but yeah the narrative The Narrative

1117
00:49:29,329 --> 00:49:27,240
changes it always seems to change yeah I

1118
00:49:33,050 --> 00:49:29,339
mean you you look into a lot of old

1119
00:49:35,329 --> 00:49:33,060
cases how do you how do you get down

1120
00:49:37,069 --> 00:49:35,339
through those exaggerated narratives and

1121
00:49:40,130 --> 00:49:37,079
find kind of the core of that and then

1122
00:49:42,290 --> 00:49:40,140
what what resources do you use uh and

1123
00:49:45,010 --> 00:49:42,300
would recommend to other you know

1124
00:49:47,450 --> 00:49:45,020
budding enthusiasts

1125
00:49:51,290 --> 00:49:47,460
well in the case of the Cash Land room

1126
00:49:54,970 --> 00:49:51,300
uh story there are early newspaper

1127
00:49:58,309 --> 00:49:54,980
accounts I eventually got hold of the uh

1128
00:50:00,170 --> 00:49:58,319
all the case files from move on and was

1129
00:50:03,650 --> 00:50:00,180
able to go through and see you know what

1130
00:50:06,170 --> 00:50:03,660
was said initially and you see before it

1131
00:50:08,569 --> 00:50:06,180
becomes homogenized or romanticized or

1132
00:50:10,790 --> 00:50:08,579
whatever so you know whatever primary

1133
00:50:12,710 --> 00:50:10,800
evidence there is now in older cases

1134
00:50:15,470 --> 00:50:12,720
we've got the files of Project Blue Book

1135
00:50:18,050 --> 00:50:15,480
so and there are interviews with

1136
00:50:20,030 --> 00:50:18,060
Witnesses sometimes there's photographs

1137
00:50:20,809 --> 00:50:20,040
and things like that

1138
00:50:23,150 --> 00:50:20,819
um

1139
00:50:25,130 --> 00:50:23,160
so you know you have to put aside maybe

1140
00:50:26,990 --> 00:50:25,140
the interpretation of the investigator

1141
00:50:29,329 --> 00:50:27,000
but you know look at what what the

1142
00:50:31,069 --> 00:50:29,339
witnesses said what you know what was

1143
00:50:35,930 --> 00:50:31,079
what was actually

1144
00:50:37,849 --> 00:50:35,940
they made sketches you know primary

1145
00:50:39,470 --> 00:50:37,859
evidence wherever it exists whatever you

1146
00:50:41,569 --> 00:50:39,480
can get whether it's the the first

1147
00:50:44,569 --> 00:50:41,579
newspaper story

1148
00:50:47,510 --> 00:50:44,579
the thing that you want to avoid uh you

1149
00:50:50,690 --> 00:50:47,520
know most of us initially hear about UFO

1150
00:50:53,630 --> 00:50:50,700
cases from from a book that does you

1151
00:50:56,510 --> 00:50:53,640
know like a digest version of a case or

1152
00:50:57,890 --> 00:50:56,520
a television presentation you know and

1153
00:51:00,950 --> 00:50:57,900
they there's always some kind of

1154
00:51:03,290 --> 00:51:00,960
simplification uh and I mean even with

1155
00:51:05,390 --> 00:51:03,300
someone the most well-meaning just like

1156
00:51:07,970 --> 00:51:05,400
paraphrases what a witness says it

1157
00:51:09,770 --> 00:51:07,980
changes the tone of of what it said and

1158
00:51:11,690 --> 00:51:09,780
then some people just can't help

1159
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:11,700
themselves from being like a Storyteller

1160
00:51:16,309 --> 00:51:14,160
well you know if they stop the car well

1161
00:51:17,990 --> 00:51:16,319
then someone else will say well they

1162
00:51:19,990 --> 00:51:18,000
were they were too frightened to turn

1163
00:51:22,910 --> 00:51:20,000
around or they were you know just

1164
00:51:25,309 --> 00:51:22,920
they're they're adding color to the

1165
00:51:32,930 --> 00:51:27,650
was there a proliferation of a diamond

1166
00:51:35,450 --> 00:51:32,940
UFOs after uh that case

1167
00:51:37,970 --> 00:51:35,460
oh that's

1168
00:51:40,490 --> 00:51:37,980
not that I'm necessarily aware of but

1169
00:51:43,910 --> 00:51:40,500
there was a very really strange quote in

1170
00:51:46,130 --> 00:51:43,920
the story before John schustler had uh

1171
00:51:50,690 --> 00:51:46,140
investigated he uh

1172
00:51:52,910 --> 00:51:50,700
a local reporter uh category interviewed

1173
00:51:54,710 --> 00:51:52,920
Witnesses she got in touch with John

1174
00:51:56,210 --> 00:51:54,720
schusler and asked him his opinion of

1175
00:51:58,010 --> 00:51:56,220
the case and he said well he was

1176
00:52:02,210 --> 00:51:58,020
particularly interested in diamond shape

1177
00:52:04,609 --> 00:52:02,220
UFOs he had looked at a record of over

1178
00:52:07,849 --> 00:52:04,619
you know whatever it was you know 200

1179
00:52:10,069 --> 00:52:07,859
say uh and you know and he thought that

1180
00:52:11,930 --> 00:52:10,079
that was significant in some way

1181
00:52:21,530 --> 00:52:11,940
so

1182
00:52:23,569 --> 00:52:21,540
other diamond shape UFOs and was really

1183
00:52:25,970 --> 00:52:23,579
really curious about that is there was

1184
00:52:27,530 --> 00:52:25,980
one reported

1185
00:52:29,390 --> 00:52:27,540
I'm not sure if it was within the same

1186
00:52:32,990 --> 00:52:29,400
month but you know it was it was that

1187
00:52:36,170 --> 00:52:33,000
that winner in 1980 and the witnesses

1188
00:52:38,510 --> 00:52:36,180
had mentioned a diamond-shaped UFO

1189
00:52:41,390 --> 00:52:38,520
but

1190
00:52:44,690 --> 00:52:41,400
we're thinking a diamond like on a deck

1191
00:52:47,270 --> 00:52:44,700
of you know in the corner deck of cards

1192
00:52:53,030 --> 00:52:47,280
they were talking about an actual cut

1193
00:52:55,370 --> 00:52:53,040
diamond that was faceted and that the

1194
00:52:57,109 --> 00:52:55,380
I don't know I don't think they saw it

1195
00:52:59,089 --> 00:52:57,119
clearly enough but they were trying to

1196
00:53:01,849 --> 00:52:59,099
describe the way the light reflected off

1197
00:53:05,290 --> 00:53:01,859
of it the multi-colored

1198
00:53:08,390 --> 00:53:05,300
um but the word Garmin is what schustler

1199
00:53:10,790 --> 00:53:08,400
seized on and said aha here's another

1200
00:53:13,130 --> 00:53:10,800
diamond shaped UFO

1201
00:53:15,230 --> 00:53:13,140
it's interesting it has Echoes of the uh

1202
00:53:16,910 --> 00:53:15,240
the kind of thyroid sighting in that the

1203
00:53:18,589 --> 00:53:16,920
way he was describing saucer-like

1204
00:53:19,730 --> 00:53:18,599
movement and that sauce are shaped but

1205
00:53:21,890 --> 00:53:19,740
it's kind of

1206
00:53:23,210 --> 00:53:21,900
grabbed onto that and went that's

1207
00:53:25,309 --> 00:53:23,220
interesting

1208
00:53:28,069 --> 00:53:25,319
the Curt you you see this in a lot of

1209
00:53:29,930 --> 00:53:28,079
these cases where they get so uh

1210
00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:29,940
confusing from an outside perspective

1211
00:53:34,430 --> 00:53:32,160
and uh Dr heineck comments on this a

1212
00:53:36,770 --> 00:53:34,440
little bit in his book too that like the

1213
00:53:39,710 --> 00:53:36,780
people who report these kind of things

1214
00:53:41,630 --> 00:53:39,720
seem completely confused by what they

1215
00:53:44,030 --> 00:53:41,640
saw and they seem to struggle to even

1216
00:53:47,270 --> 00:53:44,040
describe it which is confusing from a

1217
00:53:49,250 --> 00:53:47,280
perspective of creating a story that you

1218
00:53:51,410 --> 00:53:49,260
want to be a believable especially with

1219
00:53:54,290 --> 00:53:51,420
cash Landrum if I recall correctly like

1220
00:53:55,430 --> 00:53:54,300
it got some significant uh press because

1221
00:53:56,990 --> 00:53:55,440
they were trying to sue the government

1222
00:53:58,250 --> 00:53:57,000
trying to demonstrate that it was

1223
00:53:59,930 --> 00:53:58,260
something physically happening and

1224
00:54:02,270 --> 00:53:59,940
that's where the sort of challenge arose

1225
00:54:04,190 --> 00:54:02,280
was that demonstration like do you have

1226
00:54:07,670 --> 00:54:04,200
any insight after diving into so many

1227
00:54:11,809 --> 00:54:07,680
cases on why the narratives would like

1228
00:54:13,910 --> 00:54:11,819
be so uh inco like sort of hard to

1229
00:54:15,230 --> 00:54:13,920
believe for at face value like the 23

1230
00:54:16,430 --> 00:54:15,240
helicopter like you don't have to

1231
00:54:22,490 --> 00:54:16,440
include that fact what do you think is

1232
00:54:26,030 --> 00:54:24,049
I don't

1233
00:54:27,470 --> 00:54:26,040
I'm not sure I exactly follow your

1234
00:54:28,910 --> 00:54:27,480
question so I'll talk about something

1235
00:54:30,950 --> 00:54:28,920
else

1236
00:54:34,010 --> 00:54:30,960
what if

1237
00:54:36,890 --> 00:54:34,020
the cash flanham case had been

1238
00:54:39,410 --> 00:54:36,900
discovered by uh

1239
00:54:42,950 --> 00:54:39,420
a follower of Charles Ford what if a

1240
00:54:44,930 --> 00:54:42,960
fordian who was just interested in all

1241
00:54:47,930 --> 00:54:44,940
sorts of mysterious events and

1242
00:54:51,650 --> 00:54:47,940
happenings so instead of a ufologist

1243
00:54:52,750 --> 00:54:51,660
because they had this huge uh blazing

1244
00:54:55,730 --> 00:54:52,760
object

1245
00:55:00,109 --> 00:54:55,740
uh they actually thought that it was a

1246
00:55:02,030 --> 00:55:00,119
uh spiritual event the the involving the

1247
00:55:03,650 --> 00:55:02,040
um the end of the world I mean this is

1248
00:55:06,829 --> 00:55:03,660
this is what they thought was happening

1249
00:55:09,410 --> 00:55:06,839
the the end of the world in Flames and

1250
00:55:11,030 --> 00:55:09,420
the helicopters to them you know is what

1251
00:55:13,549 --> 00:55:11,040
influenced them later to think it was a

1252
00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:13,559
military event but the initial that was

1253
00:55:19,430 --> 00:55:15,839
their initial impression and then they

1254
00:55:25,010 --> 00:55:21,530
well now Betty cash was the one that

1255
00:55:28,250 --> 00:55:25,020
mainly had the health problems and uh

1256
00:55:31,370 --> 00:55:28,260
whatever happened to Vicki and uh and

1257
00:55:35,150 --> 00:55:31,380
Colby Landrum we you know was much less

1258
00:55:38,410 --> 00:55:35,160
severe and it has been suggested by some

1259
00:55:41,569 --> 00:55:38,420
Skeptics that that Betty actually had

1260
00:55:44,390 --> 00:55:41,579
pre-existing health problems and Colby

1261
00:55:47,809 --> 00:55:44,400
and Vicky they were basically

1262
00:55:50,270 --> 00:55:47,819
um imitating her or at least you know

1263
00:55:59,210 --> 00:55:50,280
the

1264
00:56:01,910 --> 00:55:59,220
anyway aside from that getting back to

1265
00:56:03,530 --> 00:56:01,920
the premise so what if what if uh

1266
00:56:06,230 --> 00:56:03,540
someone had looked at it as a

1267
00:56:08,990 --> 00:56:06,240
supernatural event rather than a than a

1268
00:56:11,930 --> 00:56:09,000
space UFO you know there's there's as

1269
00:56:14,569 --> 00:56:11,940
much evidence for that really

1270
00:56:16,309 --> 00:56:14,579
um but in the case in this case we had a

1271
00:56:18,230 --> 00:56:16,319
ufologist and that's where everything

1272
00:56:20,150 --> 00:56:18,240
took I mean and so

1273
00:56:24,170 --> 00:56:20,160
in the introduction to Schuster's book

1274
00:56:25,970 --> 00:56:24,180
you know he talks about he he has a uh a

1275
00:56:28,910 --> 00:56:25,980
a sort of a fictional

1276
00:56:30,530 --> 00:56:28,920
uh Preamble and he talks about the you

1277
00:56:32,150 --> 00:56:30,540
know the space visitors have been here

1278
00:56:35,690 --> 00:56:32,160
for some time the government knows about

1279
00:56:37,010 --> 00:56:35,700
it uh and they can't do anything and

1280
00:56:38,750 --> 00:56:37,020
that

1281
00:56:40,910 --> 00:56:38,760
um you know there's there's kind of the

1282
00:56:42,710 --> 00:56:40,920
subtext and so that that's it that's his

1283
00:56:45,470 --> 00:56:42,720
introduction and that was his starting

1284
00:56:47,690 --> 00:56:45,480
point so he fit he failed all along

1285
00:56:50,809 --> 00:56:47,700
that's one of the reasons he he always

1286
00:56:52,849 --> 00:56:50,819
rejected the the military explanation uh

1287
00:56:56,390 --> 00:56:52,859
for the UFO itself but you know he

1288
00:56:59,510 --> 00:56:56,400
firmly believed the um involvement of

1289
00:57:01,069 --> 00:56:59,520
the military as far as pursuing it

1290
00:57:03,670 --> 00:57:01,079
and um

1291
00:57:06,290 --> 00:57:03,680
so

1292
00:57:08,210 --> 00:57:06,300
you know the the the focus in the

1293
00:57:10,069 --> 00:57:08,220
investigator has a big part of that okay

1294
00:57:11,630 --> 00:57:10,079
now remember something else I intended

1295
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:11,640
to say

1296
00:57:14,750 --> 00:57:13,440
um I want to I want to bring up

1297
00:57:15,530 --> 00:57:14,760
something about

1298
00:57:18,049 --> 00:57:15,540
um

1299
00:57:19,370 --> 00:57:18,059
the fact that

1300
00:57:21,770 --> 00:57:19,380
we

1301
00:57:25,670 --> 00:57:21,780
the witnesses

1302
00:57:31,430 --> 00:57:28,329
no I fell off it okay something else

1303
00:57:33,770 --> 00:57:31,440
well uh since you refuse to answer my

1304
00:57:36,069 --> 00:57:33,780
previous question I'll ask another one

1305
00:57:42,109 --> 00:57:39,410
why do you well I'll just ask it maybe

1306
00:57:44,809 --> 00:57:42,119
in a simpler way why are so many of the

1307
00:57:47,510 --> 00:57:44,819
people who report like the classic UFOs

1308
00:57:49,970 --> 00:57:47,520
like why do you think that they struggle

1309
00:57:52,130 --> 00:57:49,980
so deeply with describing the object

1310
00:57:53,690 --> 00:57:52,140
that they are trying to convince others

1311
00:57:55,309 --> 00:57:53,700
that they saw

1312
00:57:57,410 --> 00:57:55,319
hmm

1313
00:58:01,309 --> 00:57:57,420
okay

1314
00:58:03,410 --> 00:58:01,319
um in some cases it's because it's

1315
00:58:06,890 --> 00:58:03,420
really not that clearly seen you know it

1316
00:58:08,450 --> 00:58:06,900
said it at a distance or you know it's

1317
00:58:14,030 --> 00:58:08,460
movement I mean a lot of the the classic

1318
00:58:16,930 --> 00:58:14,040
UFO encounters are flybys

1319
00:58:19,910 --> 00:58:16,940
um they were completely

1320
00:58:21,950 --> 00:58:19,920
unprepared to to see anything

1321
00:58:23,690 --> 00:58:21,960
uh in the in the case of The Cash Line

1322
00:58:25,670 --> 00:58:23,700
of witnesses it was there in front of

1323
00:58:27,950 --> 00:58:25,680
them for a long time it was so bright

1324
00:58:30,890 --> 00:58:27,960
they say they couldn't see it you know

1325
00:58:33,049 --> 00:58:30,900
they they had a better opportunity than

1326
00:58:35,809 --> 00:58:33,059
most people you know this wasn't the the

1327
00:58:38,990 --> 00:58:35,819
typical situation like

1328
00:58:41,450 --> 00:58:39,000
um where you know sometimes even whether

1329
00:58:43,370 --> 00:58:41,460
you're on the the deck of a ship or you

1330
00:58:46,490 --> 00:58:43,380
know you're in an airplane and you know

1331
00:58:48,349 --> 00:58:46,500
something Zips by that you and then

1332
00:58:51,710 --> 00:58:48,359
you're trying to think well was it was

1333
00:58:54,230 --> 00:58:51,720
it silvery you know was it you know if

1334
00:58:57,710 --> 00:58:54,240
it was silvery was it metallic and you

1335
00:59:02,809 --> 00:59:00,230
you know in in some instances something

1336
00:59:05,990 --> 00:59:02,819
like that could be a balloon carried by

1337
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:06,000
wind and you know was misinterpreted but

1338
00:59:12,230 --> 00:59:08,640
you know depending on what you

1339
00:59:14,930 --> 00:59:12,240
expect to see you know almost everyone's

1340
00:59:17,030 --> 00:59:14,940
been everybody knows that there's such a

1341
00:59:18,950 --> 00:59:17,040
thing as a UFO a lot of people think

1342
00:59:19,910 --> 00:59:18,960
that you know hey maybe I saw a

1343
00:59:22,910 --> 00:59:19,920
spaceship

1344
00:59:24,950 --> 00:59:22,920
so so that's that's part of it is the

1345
00:59:27,710 --> 00:59:24,960
expectations

1346
00:59:30,170 --> 00:59:27,720
um and then if you're uncertain about it

1347
00:59:32,329 --> 00:59:30,180
and you describe it to a ufologist

1348
00:59:34,670 --> 00:59:32,339
what's the ufologist going to do with

1349
00:59:36,589 --> 00:59:34,680
the information so you you say it was

1350
00:59:38,710 --> 00:59:36,599
round what could have been spherical

1351
00:59:41,270 --> 00:59:38,720
could it have been you know

1352
00:59:43,670 --> 00:59:41,280
tic-tac-shaped was it you know

1353
00:59:45,589 --> 00:59:43,680
they they can kind of influence the

1354
00:59:47,210 --> 00:59:45,599
witness and the questions they ask about

1355
00:59:48,730 --> 00:59:47,220
it um

1356
00:59:50,390 --> 00:59:48,740
it's kind of like a game of telephone

1357
00:59:53,329 --> 00:59:50,400
you were

1358
00:59:56,170 --> 00:59:53,339
um just a moment ago asking if um kind

1359
00:59:58,490 --> 00:59:56,180
of what if what if uh the castle Landrum

1360
01:00:00,770 --> 00:59:58,500
incident was experienced as a religious

1361
01:00:03,770 --> 01:00:00,780
experience or like you know through a

1362
01:00:05,150 --> 01:00:03,780
different lens and that made me wonder

1363
01:00:06,589 --> 01:00:05,160
and I think we've talked about this

1364
01:00:08,990 --> 01:00:06,599
before

1365
01:00:11,030 --> 01:00:09,000
what do you do you see a distinction in

1366
01:00:14,210 --> 01:00:11,040
the belief in religious beliefs and UFO

1367
01:00:14,220 --> 01:00:18,230
um

1368
01:00:25,390 --> 01:00:21,950
there are some ufologists that are

1369
01:00:30,170 --> 01:00:25,400
approaching this with good scientific

1370
01:00:32,569 --> 01:00:30,180
methodology and that remain neutral but

1371
01:00:34,010 --> 01:00:32,579
I think that they're in the minority and

1372
01:00:35,750 --> 01:00:34,020
I think I think a lot of the a lot of

1373
01:00:38,270 --> 01:00:35,760
the people that are interested in UFOs

1374
01:00:41,109 --> 01:00:38,280
are looking for validation for whatever

1375
01:00:43,849 --> 01:00:41,119
their their theory is and

1376
01:00:46,130 --> 01:00:43,859
extraterrestrial hypothesis

1377
01:00:48,710 --> 01:00:46,140
is a given for just a great many of them

1378
01:00:49,549 --> 01:00:48,720
and they're they're also some people who

1379
01:00:52,250 --> 01:00:49,559
think

1380
01:00:55,069 --> 01:00:52,260
you know it may be something else in

1381
01:00:56,990 --> 01:00:55,079
interdimensional or whatever but

1382
01:00:59,390 --> 01:00:57,000
again they're

1383
01:01:02,930 --> 01:00:59,400
they're chiefly looking for

1384
01:01:06,230 --> 01:01:02,940
proof to support their existing beliefs

1385
01:01:08,630 --> 01:01:06,240
why do you think that the eth is

1386
01:01:10,549 --> 01:01:08,640
um is kind of the default especially

1387
01:01:13,069 --> 01:01:10,559
with people who um you see a lot of

1388
01:01:15,829 --> 01:01:13,079
witnesses claim this that like oh I was

1389
01:01:17,930 --> 01:01:15,839
never into UFOs and I saw this

1390
01:01:24,170 --> 01:01:17,940
um and they kind of kind of default on

1391
01:01:30,109 --> 01:01:28,069
I it's it's everywhere I mean and so

1392
01:01:33,589 --> 01:01:30,119
many of our movies I mean it's been part

1393
01:01:37,250 --> 01:01:33,599
of our culture for you know since uh you

1394
01:01:41,630 --> 01:01:38,630
I don't know I'm gonna I'm gonna Mark

1395
01:01:43,970 --> 01:01:41,640
when really in it entered our culture in

1396
01:01:46,250 --> 01:01:43,980
in the 1920s and I mean you know with

1397
01:01:48,650 --> 01:01:46,260
the Buck Rogers comic strips so you know

1398
01:01:51,710 --> 01:01:48,660
that that's that's a point in which you

1399
01:01:54,230 --> 01:01:51,720
know not every home in in the USA or

1400
01:01:56,450 --> 01:01:54,240
around the world but you know a lot of

1401
01:01:58,730 --> 01:01:56,460
them were exposed to this this sort of

1402
01:02:01,730 --> 01:01:58,740
thing this this space adventure and

1403
01:02:03,650 --> 01:02:01,740
fantasy and you know and even Superman

1404
01:02:06,130 --> 01:02:03,660
is a strange visitor from another world

1405
01:02:08,210 --> 01:02:06,140
who came here in a crashed spaceship so

1406
01:02:13,190 --> 01:02:08,220
it's just

1407
01:02:16,789 --> 01:02:14,089
um

1408
01:02:18,950 --> 01:02:16,799
to fill a hole you know and you you

1409
01:02:21,950 --> 01:02:18,960
you're asking about religion well

1410
01:02:24,230 --> 01:02:21,960
Superstition is is close to that and

1411
01:02:27,829 --> 01:02:24,240
unfortunately a lot of modern you know

1412
01:02:32,390 --> 01:02:27,839
say modern you know the last 75 years uh

1413
01:02:35,150 --> 01:02:32,400
belief in in UFOs is is related sort of

1414
01:02:37,730 --> 01:02:35,160
you know whereas before if there's a

1415
01:02:39,170 --> 01:02:37,740
noise that you heard or a strange shape

1416
01:02:42,589 --> 01:02:39,180
you know it might have been a witch

1417
01:02:45,230 --> 01:02:42,599
before well now is it a UFO from outer

1418
01:02:48,890 --> 01:02:45,240
space you know it it it's

1419
01:02:53,210 --> 01:02:48,900
it's another Boogeyman that

1420
01:02:56,390 --> 01:02:53,220
it that lurks and the Midwest term the

1421
01:02:58,549 --> 01:02:56,400
low information Zone you know

1422
01:03:01,670 --> 01:02:58,559
I seem to notice that it

1423
01:03:02,870 --> 01:03:01,680
um UFO experiences as a whole kind of

1424
01:03:04,789 --> 01:03:02,880
tend to like

1425
01:03:06,710 --> 01:03:04,799
we've talked about this a lot a lot but

1426
01:03:08,809 --> 01:03:06,720
I like it mirrors our like social

1427
01:03:10,849 --> 01:03:08,819
anxieties and our fears of technology

1428
01:03:13,010 --> 01:03:10,859
and things that are kind of culturally

1429
01:03:15,289 --> 01:03:13,020
going on now and it seems to have

1430
01:03:16,970 --> 01:03:15,299
done that through all the waves through

1431
01:03:19,549 --> 01:03:16,980
history too and I think that really

1432
01:03:22,309 --> 01:03:19,559
speaks to the fact that it is kind of a

1433
01:03:24,289 --> 01:03:22,319
a cultural meme or a Superstition that

1434
01:03:26,870 --> 01:03:24,299
we all kind of default on and pick up

1435
01:03:28,970 --> 01:03:26,880
even when we're not paying attention

1436
01:03:30,829 --> 01:03:28,980
um I watch a lot of old TV commercials

1437
01:03:32,990 --> 01:03:30,839
it's a weird thing I do

1438
01:03:35,410 --> 01:03:33,000
um but in each compilation uh for many

1439
01:03:39,049 --> 01:03:35,420
decade I do see a lot of ads that use

1440
01:03:41,870 --> 01:03:39,059
spaceship alien and UFO imagery so I

1441
01:03:44,089 --> 01:03:41,880
mean I think when a lot of people hear

1442
01:03:46,490 --> 01:03:44,099
um hear people like us saying that this

1443
01:03:47,690 --> 01:03:46,500
UFO narrative comes from pop culture I

1444
01:03:49,789 --> 01:03:47,700
think they're taking that and kind of

1445
01:03:52,190 --> 01:03:49,799
understanding it as like oh I watch

1446
01:03:54,349 --> 01:03:52,200
Sci-Fi movies therefore I think I see

1447
01:03:56,990 --> 01:03:54,359
aliens and I don't think it's his direct

1448
01:04:00,530 --> 01:03:57,000
or reductionist as that but I think like

1449
01:04:02,270 --> 01:04:00,540
that kind of eth concept just kind of

1450
01:04:03,410 --> 01:04:02,280
permeates culture from a lot of

1451
01:04:06,109 --> 01:04:03,420
different angles and it's really

1452
01:04:07,329 --> 01:04:06,119
subconscious and it's something we all

1453
01:04:10,130 --> 01:04:07,339
kind of

1454
01:04:12,470 --> 01:04:10,140
subconsciously share at least in the

1455
01:04:14,329 --> 01:04:12,480
states I'm not as familiar um with other

1456
01:04:16,250 --> 01:04:14,339
cultures in other countries

1457
01:04:18,109 --> 01:04:16,260
but it it's good to hear you kind of

1458
01:04:21,410 --> 01:04:18,119
reflect what I've been thinking about

1459
01:04:23,809 --> 01:04:21,420
lately no yeah I don't think it's a

1460
01:04:26,270 --> 01:04:23,819
matter of I agree with you I don't think

1461
01:04:28,970 --> 01:04:26,280
it's a matter of people not being able

1462
01:04:32,030 --> 01:04:28,980
to tell difference between fantasy and

1463
01:04:35,150 --> 01:04:32,040
reality at all right I I think

1464
01:04:38,150 --> 01:04:35,160
it's just that if if you have if you've

1465
01:04:39,710 --> 01:04:38,160
never flown a plane you've seen it in

1466
01:04:41,930 --> 01:04:39,720
the movies and you may think you know

1467
01:04:44,210 --> 01:04:41,940
what it's like but you really don't it's

1468
01:04:45,710 --> 01:04:44,220
a placeholder in your mind and yeah and

1469
01:04:49,329 --> 01:04:45,720
and almost everything

1470
01:04:53,150 --> 01:04:49,339
kind of works that way I mean

1471
01:04:55,370 --> 01:04:53,160
you know my first concept of a woman's

1472
01:05:00,549 --> 01:04:55,380
body was like my sister's Barbie doll

1473
01:05:05,569 --> 01:05:02,990
but no I

1474
01:05:06,349 --> 01:05:05,579
I do I do think it it

1475
01:05:10,609 --> 01:05:06,359
um

1476
01:05:13,370 --> 01:05:10,619
concepts and maybe the features of UFO

1477
01:05:15,170 --> 01:05:13,380
encounters also seem very human right

1478
01:05:16,910 --> 01:05:15,180
they always kind of mirror like I was

1479
01:05:18,230 --> 01:05:16,920
saying like what we are doing

1480
01:05:20,990 --> 01:05:18,240
um

1481
01:05:23,210 --> 01:05:21,000
you see the uh the kind of like

1482
01:05:25,670 --> 01:05:23,220
electrical interference qualities coming

1483
01:05:27,770 --> 01:05:25,680
out of UFOs shortly after

1484
01:05:28,849 --> 01:05:27,780
um the Sputnik launches but what

1485
01:05:30,470 --> 01:05:28,859
happened right after this button

1486
01:05:32,270 --> 01:05:30,480
launches as you see in the newspaper is

1487
01:05:34,670 --> 01:05:32,280
a lot of strange propaganda about

1488
01:05:36,950 --> 01:05:34,680
Sputnik opening people's garage doors or

1489
01:05:38,750 --> 01:05:36,960
changing uh changing the TV channels to

1490
01:05:40,970 --> 01:05:38,760
Russian propaganda to hypnotize the

1491
01:05:43,130 --> 01:05:40,980
masses and stuff like that you see that

1492
01:05:45,829 --> 01:05:43,140
kind of stuff mirrored along with these

1493
01:05:47,930 --> 01:05:45,839
UFO experiences you see in the 90s is I

1494
01:05:48,890 --> 01:05:47,940
think it was senti's point out

1495
01:05:50,990 --> 01:05:48,900
um

1496
01:05:52,549 --> 01:05:51,000
in in popular culture what was going on

1497
01:05:54,109 --> 01:05:52,559
now the Genome Project

1498
01:05:56,390 --> 01:05:54,119
um in vitro fertilization and stuff and

1499
01:05:59,150 --> 01:05:56,400
that was the big um 80s and 90s were the

1500
01:06:00,770 --> 01:05:59,160
big uh the hybridization program and the

1501
01:06:03,109 --> 01:06:00,780
Grays and the abduction and it was right

1502
01:06:05,630 --> 01:06:03,119
on the heels of the satanic Panic it's

1503
01:06:07,670 --> 01:06:05,640
always kind of like woven itself into

1504
01:06:10,430 --> 01:06:07,680
our culture we even look at aerial

1505
01:06:11,329 --> 01:06:10,440
School these uh these beings are telling

1506
01:06:14,930 --> 01:06:11,339
the kids

1507
01:06:17,510 --> 01:06:14,940
um a very individualistic approach to uh

1508
01:06:20,809 --> 01:06:17,520
climate change you know like oh recycle

1509
01:06:22,370 --> 01:06:20,819
and stuff like that not not uh oh let's

1510
01:06:23,569 --> 01:06:22,380
land and tell the CEOs of these large

1511
01:06:25,010 --> 01:06:23,579
companies that are polluting and

1512
01:06:26,329 --> 01:06:25,020
actually contributing to climate change

1513
01:06:28,609 --> 01:06:26,339
to stop what they're doing let's tell

1514
01:06:31,430 --> 01:06:28,619
these kids you know it's it's always

1515
01:06:32,750 --> 01:06:31,440
very human ideas it's always Concepts

1516
01:06:34,910 --> 01:06:32,760
that we already kind of subconsciously

1517
01:06:36,770 --> 01:06:34,920
know as a culture too so it never

1518
01:06:38,270 --> 01:06:36,780
Ventures off it's

1519
01:06:40,609 --> 01:06:38,280
um it's what Lewis and I always talk

1520
01:06:42,349 --> 01:06:40,619
about when we're talking about um the

1521
01:06:44,029 --> 01:06:42,359
Alien movies alien and Aliens I think

1522
01:06:46,549 --> 01:06:44,039
aliens became

1523
01:06:48,410 --> 01:06:46,559
it made it not alien enough anymore it's

1524
01:06:50,870 --> 01:06:48,420
such a human idea and I think we project

1525
01:06:53,930 --> 01:06:50,880
our own kind of human creativity into

1526
01:06:56,210 --> 01:06:53,940
these things as well yeah it's you know

1527
01:06:58,970 --> 01:06:56,220
at least in the way we interpret the

1528
01:07:01,670 --> 01:06:58,980
events and so

1529
01:07:02,710 --> 01:07:01,680
you know I have to ask you know I I

1530
01:07:10,010 --> 01:07:02,720
believe

1531
01:07:12,710 --> 01:07:10,020
troubling but yes there are UFOs of some

1532
01:07:14,809 --> 01:07:12,720
type you know whatever the source

1533
01:07:17,390 --> 01:07:14,819
but there's also

1534
01:07:19,730 --> 01:07:17,400
an incredible amount of Mythology that's

1535
01:07:21,950 --> 01:07:19,740
been crafted some of it has been

1536
01:07:24,230 --> 01:07:21,960
purposely written you know a lot of

1537
01:07:25,970 --> 01:07:24,240
fantasy I mean that that happens with

1538
01:07:29,029 --> 01:07:25,980
historical events there's all this

1539
01:07:31,270 --> 01:07:29,039
Apocrypha and rumors and legends and

1540
01:07:33,650 --> 01:07:31,280
things like that but

1541
01:07:35,750 --> 01:07:33,660
that's some kind of you know you you

1542
01:07:37,849 --> 01:07:35,760
mentioned in religion well there's a lot

1543
01:07:40,730 --> 01:07:37,859
of uh there are a lot of stories of

1544
01:07:42,829 --> 01:07:40,740
encounters with Angelic beings and

1545
01:07:45,529 --> 01:07:42,839
things like that you know and you know

1546
01:07:47,089 --> 01:07:45,539
what happens to this day and so

1547
01:07:50,750 --> 01:07:47,099
in

1548
01:07:53,569 --> 01:07:50,760
so our our UFO contact cases are not

1549
01:07:56,750 --> 01:07:53,579
that special they're people that are

1550
01:07:58,789 --> 01:07:56,760
seeing Bigfoot up close and things like

1551
01:08:01,670 --> 01:07:58,799
that and this this has happened

1552
01:08:04,069 --> 01:08:01,680
throughout human history now somebody

1553
01:08:06,710 --> 01:08:04,079
like uh Jacque Valley is going to say

1554
01:08:09,549 --> 01:08:06,720
well that's the phenomena adapting to

1555
01:08:11,870 --> 01:08:09,559
the ages and you know the human

1556
01:08:14,510 --> 01:08:11,880
how the humans can process the

1557
01:08:17,570 --> 01:08:14,520
information I don't know that that's

1558
01:08:20,390 --> 01:08:17,580
necessarily true but whatever it is it's

1559
01:08:22,430 --> 01:08:20,400
it's not a you know it

1560
01:08:25,610 --> 01:08:22,440
people telling the stories about strange

1561
01:08:27,289 --> 01:08:25,620
encounters it that it does happen over

1562
01:08:29,090 --> 01:08:27,299
and over and now you know you know we

1563
01:08:31,309 --> 01:08:29,100
were talking about historical events so

1564
01:08:34,070 --> 01:08:31,319
there were there were stories there were

1565
01:08:37,490 --> 01:08:34,080
a lot of hoaxes of airships in the 1800s

1566
01:08:39,950 --> 01:08:37,500
right there were some also some stories

1567
01:08:43,010 --> 01:08:39,960
that seem more credible but people talk

1568
01:08:44,630 --> 01:08:43,020
about meeting the occupants of these

1569
01:08:46,729 --> 01:08:44,640
airships and there were people from

1570
01:08:49,550 --> 01:08:46,739
other countries and you know these

1571
01:08:51,709 --> 01:08:49,560
stories were really only outlandish in

1572
01:08:53,510 --> 01:08:51,719
the fact that the airships had not been

1573
01:08:55,430 --> 01:08:53,520
successfully built and flown at the time

1574
01:08:57,650 --> 01:08:55,440
it's almost as like you know they're

1575
01:09:00,050 --> 01:08:57,660
just like a couple of decades out of out

1576
01:09:01,729 --> 01:09:00,060
of time and place but you know other

1577
01:09:07,669 --> 01:09:01,739
than that there's nothing fantastic

1578
01:09:11,990 --> 01:09:10,249
the uh it seems like the the stories

1579
01:09:13,970 --> 01:09:12,000
behind this keeps moving further and

1580
01:09:15,470 --> 01:09:13,980
further out too because you know like

1581
01:09:18,169 --> 01:09:15,480
you said the airships were from other

1582
01:09:19,970 --> 01:09:18,179
countries then the uh the ETS were from

1583
01:09:21,890 --> 01:09:19,980
our solar system that then we start to

1584
01:09:23,689 --> 01:09:21,900
understand more so they have to keep

1585
01:09:25,490 --> 01:09:23,699
moving further and further out into the

1586
01:09:26,269 --> 01:09:25,500
fringes of our understanding for us to

1587
01:09:28,789 --> 01:09:26,279
even

1588
01:09:30,650 --> 01:09:28,799
um kind of go along with this whole

1589
01:09:33,169 --> 01:09:30,660
narrative it seems like so now we're

1590
01:09:35,630 --> 01:09:33,179
moving into uh even murky or territories

1591
01:09:38,689 --> 01:09:35,640
involving um you know appeals to Quantum

1592
01:09:41,809 --> 01:09:38,699
Mechanics or Consciousness when these um

1593
01:09:43,490 --> 01:09:41,819
they're not largely understood Fields or

1594
01:09:46,430 --> 01:09:43,500
even agreed upon so they can kind of

1595
01:09:50,630 --> 01:09:46,440
hide there in the weeds I suppose

1596
01:09:53,809 --> 01:09:50,640
those encounters with the fairies and

1597
01:09:57,189 --> 01:09:53,819
aliens and even airships historian

1598
01:10:00,950 --> 01:09:57,199
Jerome Clark refers these to

1599
01:10:03,650 --> 01:10:00,960
experiential Encounters in which you

1600
01:10:06,470 --> 01:10:03,660
know and I've listened to him try to

1601
01:10:08,090 --> 01:10:06,480
explain him I don't quite get it but I

1602
01:10:12,050 --> 01:10:08,100
think he's saying that they're basically

1603
01:10:14,330 --> 01:10:12,060
in the witnesses head uh but but I think

1604
01:10:18,110 --> 01:10:14,340
he thinks that it's a genuine phenomena

1605
01:10:20,630 --> 01:10:18,120
I I don't quite understand it so anyway

1606
01:10:24,290 --> 01:10:20,640
I give up

1607
01:10:27,830 --> 01:10:24,300
now there's a uh a long history of

1608
01:10:29,930 --> 01:10:27,840
people researching UFO subject and then

1609
01:10:32,990 --> 01:10:29,940
sort of coming to a conclusion

1610
01:10:34,630 --> 01:10:33,000
ultimately that there is a tiny fraction

1611
01:10:37,189 --> 01:10:34,640
of

1612
01:10:40,610 --> 01:10:37,199
genuine well to use Arthur C Clarke's

1613
01:10:44,209 --> 01:10:40,620
language genuine hardcore hardcore real

1614
01:10:47,630 --> 01:10:44,219
UFOs and uh that is something distinct

1615
01:10:51,470 --> 01:10:47,640
as something novel something that is not

1616
01:10:53,810 --> 01:10:51,480
previously known uh Dr heinek

1617
01:10:56,030 --> 01:10:53,820
um that detailed the features of this

1618
01:10:59,270 --> 01:10:56,040
subcategory that he believed made up a

1619
01:11:01,010 --> 01:10:59,280
tiny percentage of uh overall UFO cases

1620
01:11:04,130 --> 01:11:01,020
and these are the genuine ones he says

1621
01:11:06,770 --> 01:11:04,140
no distinct point source lights uh

1622
01:11:09,110 --> 01:11:06,780
General fluorescent glow

1623
01:11:11,149 --> 01:11:09,120
um oval disc shapes stunted dill pickle

1624
01:11:12,890 --> 01:11:11,159
shinier glowing never having distinct

1625
01:11:14,810 --> 01:11:12,900
lights uh yellowish white metallic uh

1626
01:11:16,250 --> 01:11:14,820
you know so it's a strange object that

1627
01:11:19,490 --> 01:11:16,260
you don't think of when you think of UFO

1628
01:11:22,610 --> 01:11:19,500
it's like a generally glowing thing

1629
01:11:24,050 --> 01:11:22,620
without distinct Point sources

1630
01:11:25,370 --> 01:11:24,060
um and that's you know kind of

1631
01:11:27,709 --> 01:11:25,380
interesting because it's consistent with

1632
01:11:29,510 --> 01:11:27,719
these historic accounts of other like

1633
01:11:30,950 --> 01:11:29,520
kinds of beatings and stuff and who

1634
01:11:34,970 --> 01:11:30,960
knows if there's an actual link there

1635
01:11:36,770 --> 01:11:34,980
but in your opinion uh Kurt uh do you

1636
01:11:39,050 --> 01:11:36,780
think that there is like that like

1637
01:11:41,330 --> 01:11:39,060
residual with those common features that

1638
01:11:43,189 --> 01:11:41,340
Dr heinek described do you think that

1639
01:11:50,510 --> 01:11:43,199
those are slightly off what's your take

1640
01:11:53,270 --> 01:11:51,110
um

1641
01:11:54,070 --> 01:11:53,280
I don't know

1642
01:11:57,229 --> 01:11:54,080
um

1643
01:11:58,850 --> 01:11:57,239
really uh there

1644
01:12:02,090 --> 01:11:58,860
so

1645
01:12:04,850 --> 01:12:02,100
John Alexander says likes to talk about

1646
01:12:06,649 --> 01:12:04,860
when you say UFOs what kind there's all

1647
01:12:08,570 --> 01:12:06,659
kinds and some people don't care about

1648
01:12:10,669 --> 01:12:08,580
some kinds of them like some people

1649
01:12:13,189 --> 01:12:10,679
think green Fireballs aren't worth

1650
01:12:14,930 --> 01:12:13,199
talking about you know they're they're

1651
01:12:17,930 --> 01:12:14,940
probably more legitimate scientists

1652
01:12:22,130 --> 01:12:17,940
studying green Fireballs back in the 50s

1653
01:12:25,790 --> 01:12:22,140
than they were the the flying saucers as

1654
01:12:27,050 --> 01:12:25,800
the fans wanted to hear about it so some

1655
01:12:28,090 --> 01:12:27,060
of those things

1656
01:12:30,290 --> 01:12:28,100
um

1657
01:12:32,330 --> 01:12:30,300
yeah there there could be some

1658
01:12:33,709 --> 01:12:32,340
atmospheric phenomena that they're part

1659
01:12:35,689 --> 01:12:33,719
of it

1660
01:12:37,729 --> 01:12:35,699
um you know what if there are some

1661
01:12:39,770 --> 01:12:37,739
little space warps that happen from time

1662
01:12:41,930 --> 01:12:39,780
to time I don't know there there could

1663
01:12:42,950 --> 01:12:41,940
be things like that you know they're you

1664
01:12:45,470 --> 01:12:42,960
know we have

1665
01:12:47,630 --> 01:12:45,480
solved all the signs you know I I think

1666
01:12:49,610 --> 01:12:47,640
the uh the the

1667
01:12:50,930 --> 01:12:49,620
um saucer-shaped

1668
01:12:55,130 --> 01:12:50,940
spaceships

1669
01:12:55,910 --> 01:12:55,140
from another world are probably

1670
01:12:57,950 --> 01:12:55,920
um

1671
01:13:00,470 --> 01:12:57,960
that's probably not much of what we're

1672
01:13:03,189 --> 01:13:00,480
seeing if any

1673
01:13:09,070 --> 01:13:06,590
take us back to the 1980s for just a

1674
01:13:13,130 --> 01:13:09,080
second to um

1675
01:13:17,030 --> 01:13:13,140
the Rick Doty and the cash flanner case

1676
01:13:19,070 --> 01:13:17,040
the Roswell case you know all that stuff

1677
01:13:20,990 --> 01:13:19,080
is happening at the same time and it's

1678
01:13:24,110 --> 01:13:21,000
almost as if the Roswell case and the

1679
01:13:26,630 --> 01:13:24,120
Cashland case were um

1680
01:13:28,550 --> 01:13:26,640
uh well they were both being promoted at

1681
01:13:30,950 --> 01:13:28,560
the same time and one of the things they

1682
01:13:33,410 --> 01:13:30,960
have in common is the underlying UFO

1683
01:13:35,630 --> 01:13:33,420
beliefs and one of one of the strangest

1684
01:13:37,010 --> 01:13:35,640
beliefs about UFOs

1685
01:13:39,470 --> 01:13:37,020
is

1686
01:13:44,090 --> 01:13:39,480
the belief in uh

1687
01:13:46,310 --> 01:13:44,100
just a incredibly competent UFO cover-up

1688
01:13:47,870 --> 01:13:46,320
by the US government where the suction

1689
01:13:50,330 --> 01:13:47,880
up evidence

1690
01:13:52,370 --> 01:13:50,340
to the extent that

1691
01:13:55,370 --> 01:13:52,380
whenever you don't get an answer from

1692
01:13:59,630 --> 01:13:55,380
the government and when no evidence is

1693
01:14:00,790 --> 01:13:59,640
found that is in this effect proof of

1694
01:14:04,910 --> 01:14:00,800
the cover-up

1695
01:14:07,970 --> 01:14:04,920
so you know the lack of evidence is

1696
01:14:12,530 --> 01:14:07,980
verification that it's a UFO event so

1697
01:14:14,510 --> 01:14:12,540
somehow always yeah uh yeah speaking of

1698
01:14:16,070 --> 01:14:14,520
Roswell you were mentioning um Roswell

1699
01:14:18,770 --> 01:14:16,080
being promoted at the same time of cash

1700
01:14:19,970 --> 01:14:18,780
Landrum in the 80s and I think people

1701
01:14:21,410 --> 01:14:19,980
um a little less familiar with the

1702
01:14:22,370 --> 01:14:21,420
history might think that sounds weird

1703
01:14:24,890 --> 01:14:22,380
but

1704
01:14:26,689 --> 01:14:24,900
um up until that point Roswell wasn't

1705
01:14:28,970 --> 01:14:26,699
really a story it was resurrected in the

1706
01:14:32,030 --> 01:14:28,980
80s isn't that right that that's right

1707
01:14:34,729 --> 01:14:32,040
there you go through uh you go through

1708
01:14:36,590 --> 01:14:34,739
UFO history and there's there's a very

1709
01:14:38,630 --> 01:14:36,600
few mentions of Roswell and they'll say

1710
01:14:41,030 --> 01:14:38,640
like oh well you know here's this there

1711
01:14:43,370 --> 01:14:41,040
was this weather balloons I think Frank

1712
01:14:46,010 --> 01:14:43,380
Edwards mentioned it briefly and he said

1713
01:14:48,110 --> 01:14:46,020
yeah and a UFO crashed into a mountain

1714
01:14:50,149 --> 01:14:48,120
and they said it was a weather balloon

1715
01:14:52,250 --> 01:14:50,159
well there was no mountains so that

1716
01:14:55,669 --> 01:14:52,260
story's off I don't know if you own a

1717
01:14:57,290 --> 01:14:55,679
few counts but yeah it was uh

1718
01:14:59,810 --> 01:14:57,300
um Jesse Marcel

1719
01:15:03,050 --> 01:14:59,820
um was circulating the story Leonard

1720
01:15:05,590 --> 01:15:03,060
string Phil heard about it uh

1721
01:15:09,350 --> 01:15:05,600
uh Stan Friedman got a hold of the story

1722
01:15:12,770 --> 01:15:09,360
and the Jesse Marcel was featured in the

1723
01:15:16,310 --> 01:15:12,780
story uh UFOs are real as part of like

1724
01:15:18,110 --> 01:15:16,320
you know whatever 20 other UFO stories

1725
01:15:21,290 --> 01:15:18,120
he was a segment in the movie and it was

1726
01:15:27,350 --> 01:15:21,300
just another UFO story so until the book

1727
01:15:32,750 --> 01:15:29,330
um I think it was a really Unsolved

1728
01:15:34,810 --> 01:15:32,760
Mysteries did a story on it when it

1729
01:15:38,209 --> 01:15:34,820
became a household word and that's when

1730
01:15:40,010 --> 01:15:38,219
that's when Witnesses started coming out

1731
01:15:42,310 --> 01:15:40,020
of the on the woodwork that claimed to

1732
01:15:45,530 --> 01:15:42,320
have also seen the bodies but yeah so

1733
01:15:47,689 --> 01:15:45,540
for for anybody that isn't very familiar

1734
01:15:51,709 --> 01:15:47,699
with the case the original Roswell story

1735
01:15:53,510 --> 01:15:51,719
had no there was no if it was a if it

1736
01:15:55,310 --> 01:15:53,520
was a flying saucer crashed it was an

1737
01:15:58,130 --> 01:15:55,320
unmanned one there was no mentions of

1738
01:16:01,189 --> 01:15:58,140
bodies anywhere uh it was a funny thing

1739
01:16:02,930 --> 01:16:01,199
there was a doctor Edgar Mitchell was

1740
01:16:04,570 --> 01:16:02,940
talking about his memories of Roswell

1741
01:16:07,810 --> 01:16:04,580
and he was talking about reading about

1742
01:16:11,209 --> 01:16:07,820
the the uh the bodies in the newspaper

1743
01:16:16,490 --> 01:16:11,219
well that didn't happen

1744
01:16:19,430 --> 01:16:16,500
um now what did happen was in 1949 there

1745
01:16:21,470 --> 01:16:19,440
started being stories about uh told by

1746
01:16:23,750 --> 01:16:21,480
Frank Scully that he had heard we've

1747
01:16:25,910 --> 01:16:23,760
later heard from Silas Newton about a

1748
01:16:29,209 --> 01:16:25,920
crash in Aztec and it wasn't actually a

1749
01:16:31,550 --> 01:16:29,219
crash it was is a supposedly a media or

1750
01:16:33,770 --> 01:16:31,560
something and it knocked a hole in the

1751
01:16:37,250 --> 01:16:33,780
hole of a spaceship and then it had

1752
01:16:40,850 --> 01:16:37,260
landed my remote control and there were

1753
01:16:44,450 --> 01:16:40,860
these three foot bodies inside and they

1754
01:16:46,370 --> 01:16:44,460
were later Taken and examined and so you

1755
01:16:48,290 --> 01:16:46,380
had your alien autopsy you had your

1756
01:16:50,390 --> 01:16:48,300
bodies and everything it was the subject

1757
01:16:54,050 --> 01:16:50,400
of uh scully's

1758
01:16:55,729 --> 01:16:54,060
there he is scully's best-selling book

1759
01:16:58,910 --> 01:16:55,739
and uh

1760
01:17:03,169 --> 01:16:58,920
uh it was it was in variations of it

1761
01:17:04,910 --> 01:17:03,179
were all sorts of uh newspapers uh they

1762
01:17:07,669 --> 01:17:04,920
were in some some versions of the story

1763
01:17:10,130 --> 01:17:07,679
it crashed in Mexico

1764
01:17:12,169 --> 01:17:10,140
um you know in in some in some versions

1765
01:17:15,890 --> 01:17:12,179
of the story The Little Men wore

1766
01:17:20,450 --> 01:17:15,900
Victorian clothing uh yeah I mean it was

1767
01:17:22,729 --> 01:17:20,460
huge it it really drove the the Flying

1768
01:17:24,950 --> 01:17:22,739
Saucer business and

1769
01:17:26,510 --> 01:17:24,960
uh it was eventually

1770
01:17:28,910 --> 01:17:26,520
Roswell

1771
01:17:31,570 --> 01:17:28,920
in my interpretation

1772
01:17:35,450 --> 01:17:31,580
in around 1980

1773
01:17:36,470 --> 01:17:35,460
resurrected this Aztec story and brought

1774
01:17:39,169 --> 01:17:36,480
it all

1775
01:17:41,689 --> 01:17:39,179
you know they redressed it redress the

1776
01:17:45,770 --> 01:17:43,850
could you uh comment or I just wanted to

1777
01:17:47,270 --> 01:17:45,780
mention Louise uh we lost him he

1778
01:17:49,010 --> 01:17:47,280
mentioned that there was a storm going

1779
01:17:51,830 --> 01:17:49,020
on in his area and he might lose power

1780
01:17:54,890 --> 01:17:51,840
so I assume that's what happened but um

1781
01:17:57,169 --> 01:17:54,900
for Roswell uh when I've looked into it

1782
01:17:58,370 --> 01:17:57,179
I've seen that they did uh the

1783
01:18:01,070 --> 01:17:58,380
government the US government did a

1784
01:18:04,850 --> 01:18:01,080
pretty extensive uh inquiry into it in

1785
01:18:06,709 --> 01:18:04,860
the 90s and uh they ended up getting the

1786
01:18:09,410 --> 01:18:06,719
uh is it the Army if I recall to be

1787
01:18:12,649 --> 01:18:09,420
pretty forthcoming and sort of concluded

1788
01:18:15,169 --> 01:18:12,659
that it really seemed based on their own

1789
01:18:17,270 --> 01:18:15,179
internal records was one of these uh

1790
01:18:19,970 --> 01:18:17,280
project Mogul

1791
01:18:21,649 --> 01:18:19,980
um listening devices to hear a distant

1792
01:18:23,570 --> 01:18:21,659
nuclear weapons go off similar to what

1793
01:18:24,890 --> 01:18:23,580
they had in the oceans as well that

1794
01:18:26,689 --> 01:18:24,900
allowed them to know where the entire

1795
01:18:27,649 --> 01:18:26,699
Soviet nuclear fleet was the entire time

1796
01:18:29,630 --> 01:18:27,659
so

1797
01:18:31,430 --> 01:18:29,640
you know with with the internal records

1798
01:18:33,050 --> 01:18:31,440
seeming to indicate at least it would

1799
01:18:34,370 --> 01:18:33,060
require like an extremely elaborate

1800
01:18:37,070 --> 01:18:34,380
conspiracy

1801
01:18:39,229 --> 01:18:37,080
um and your experience within sort of

1802
01:18:40,610 --> 01:18:39,239
like the UFO Community speaking to

1803
01:18:42,890 --> 01:18:40,620
people about this there being so many

1804
01:18:44,750 --> 01:18:42,900
people uh sort of founding their beliefs

1805
01:18:46,550 --> 01:18:44,760
on Roswell could you just comment a

1806
01:18:48,410 --> 01:18:46,560
little bit about how you talk to people

1807
01:18:51,290 --> 01:18:48,420
about that case when there's such strong

1808
01:18:53,870 --> 01:18:51,300
opinions and then also sort of like this

1809
01:18:59,330 --> 01:18:53,880
historical record that we can look to

1810
01:19:04,610 --> 01:19:01,790
well a lot of people now have have grown

1811
01:19:07,669 --> 01:19:04,620
up with Roswell and and as Nick said a

1812
01:19:09,830 --> 01:19:07,679
lot of people are unaware that it was a

1813
01:19:11,689 --> 01:19:09,840
minor event that you know it was

1814
01:19:13,669 --> 01:19:11,699
essentially a retcon and they think that

1815
01:19:16,550 --> 01:19:13,679
it was important all along and that's

1816
01:19:18,470 --> 01:19:16,560
simply not true it was developed it was

1817
01:19:20,510 --> 01:19:18,480
built and the the book that sold it the

1818
01:19:22,010 --> 01:19:20,520
Roswell incident

1819
01:19:23,930 --> 01:19:22,020
um well let me let me tell you a little

1820
01:19:26,450 --> 01:19:23,940
story this is fresh in my mind so this

1821
01:19:29,570 --> 01:19:26,460
is this kind of illustrate things so so

1822
01:19:31,370 --> 01:19:29,580
William Moore who you know and most you

1823
01:19:33,229 --> 01:19:31,380
know he was associate of Dodie's and

1824
01:19:35,570 --> 01:19:33,239
most people know he kind of left ufology

1825
01:19:38,030 --> 01:19:35,580
and disgrace and he accused a lot of

1826
01:19:40,610 --> 01:19:38,040
people of being spies and and things

1827
01:19:44,090 --> 01:19:40,620
like that you know I think what had

1828
01:19:46,030 --> 01:19:44,100
happened was he had um he found

1829
01:19:49,669 --> 01:19:46,040
he was basically

1830
01:19:52,310 --> 01:19:49,679
some of his duplicity was being exposed

1831
01:19:55,850 --> 01:19:52,320
and so he did this as a cover story well

1832
01:19:58,130 --> 01:19:55,860
well anyway in the 1980 book he cites

1833
01:20:02,229 --> 01:19:58,140
a newspaper article which he does not

1834
01:20:05,750 --> 01:20:02,239
give the source for where a journalist

1835
01:20:09,350 --> 01:20:05,760
and historian of prominence Fletcher

1836
01:20:11,149 --> 01:20:09,360
Pratt had spoke at a um

1837
01:20:12,649 --> 01:20:11,159
I had a

1838
01:20:14,330 --> 01:20:12,659
I don't know if he said it was a dinner

1839
01:20:15,770 --> 01:20:14,340
or a banquet that was put on by a

1840
01:20:18,290 --> 01:20:15,780
Science magazine

1841
01:20:20,630 --> 01:20:18,300
and he revealed that he had sources

1842
01:20:22,669 --> 01:20:20,640
within the government that told him that

1843
01:20:24,530 --> 01:20:22,679
a disc had been crap uh had been

1844
01:20:27,110 --> 01:20:24,540
captured by the military

1845
01:20:29,930 --> 01:20:27,120
that bodies had been recovered

1846
01:20:31,910 --> 01:20:29,940
and that they had been autopsied

1847
01:20:34,430 --> 01:20:31,920
this um

1848
01:20:36,770 --> 01:20:34,440
and he said that whether or not this is

1849
01:20:40,030 --> 01:20:36,780
directly related to Roswell you know a

1850
01:20:42,649 --> 01:20:40,040
person of uh of Fletcher Pratt's status

1851
01:20:44,750 --> 01:20:42,659
uh who did have connections and

1852
01:20:46,910 --> 01:20:44,760
knowledge about the government you know

1853
01:20:49,370 --> 01:20:46,920
that his word

1854
01:20:52,430 --> 01:20:49,380
his sources must be good and he wouldn't

1855
01:20:54,590 --> 01:20:52,440
risk his reputation by saying that so he

1856
01:20:57,169 --> 01:20:54,600
just that was one of the incidences the

1857
01:21:00,590 --> 01:20:57,179
incidents in the book to help support

1858
01:21:03,169 --> 01:21:00,600
the idea for crashed UFOs

1859
01:21:05,390 --> 01:21:03,179
so recently

1860
01:21:08,270 --> 01:21:05,400
um well a few years ago and I just

1861
01:21:11,870 --> 01:21:08,280
re-examined it there was a clipping uh

1862
01:21:14,510 --> 01:21:11,880
from a newspaper from Burma and it's

1863
01:21:17,870 --> 01:21:14,520
it's the incident that this is based on

1864
01:21:19,130 --> 01:21:17,880
and the source for the news was AFP

1865
01:21:22,209 --> 01:21:19,140
which was

1866
01:21:27,110 --> 01:21:22,219
well it was the it was a French

1867
01:21:28,430 --> 01:21:27,120
newspaper uh uh Syndicate and they

1868
01:21:30,229 --> 01:21:28,440
distribute the information to other

1869
01:21:34,250 --> 01:21:30,239
newspapers

1870
01:21:37,729 --> 01:21:34,260
that ran this story

1871
01:21:41,630 --> 01:21:37,739
uh and it was based on a a speech that

1872
01:21:44,870 --> 01:21:41,640
Fletcher Pratt gave December 31st 1949

1873
01:21:44,880 --> 01:21:49,030
foreign

1874
01:21:53,149 --> 01:21:51,169
research and some of the things that

1875
01:21:54,950 --> 01:21:53,159
have cited that you know and and that

1876
01:21:56,990 --> 01:21:54,960
article that that he and based set off

1877
01:22:00,590 --> 01:21:57,000
you know stopped there well December

1878
01:22:03,370 --> 01:22:00,600
31st 1949 was the New Year's Eve party

1879
01:22:06,709 --> 01:22:03,380
for the Hydra Club science fiction

1880
01:22:08,630 --> 01:22:06,719
writers of which Fletcher Pratt was also

1881
01:22:10,970 --> 01:22:08,640
a science fiction writer he gave a

1882
01:22:13,209 --> 01:22:10,980
speech on flying saucers the science

1883
01:22:16,250 --> 01:22:13,219
fiction fans

1884
01:22:18,890 --> 01:22:16,260
were Skeptics by and large

1885
01:22:21,550 --> 01:22:18,900
Pratt was one of them he gave a talk

1886
01:22:26,149 --> 01:22:21,560
about the UFO news in the day

1887
01:22:28,250 --> 01:22:26,159
this was right when Don kehoe's article

1888
01:22:30,770 --> 01:22:28,260
was released in true magazine flying

1889
01:22:33,590 --> 01:22:30,780
stars are doing the news everywhere

1890
01:22:35,750 --> 01:22:33,600
as part of his talk he gave a version of

1891
01:22:37,790 --> 01:22:35,760
the Silas Newton story that we were

1892
01:22:42,050 --> 01:22:37,800
talking about earlier that's that's what

1893
01:22:45,110 --> 01:22:42,060
was in that clipping and Pratt's talk uh

1894
01:22:46,550 --> 01:22:45,120
was summarized in uh very briefly in the

1895
01:22:50,630 --> 01:22:46,560
uh

1896
01:22:53,330 --> 01:22:50,640
a New York Magazine

1897
01:22:57,649 --> 01:22:53,340
and it said he said flying saucers were

1898
01:22:59,450 --> 01:22:57,659
a big fake that was concluded now the

1899
01:23:01,790 --> 01:22:59,460
French correspondent picked up the story

1900
01:23:04,370 --> 01:23:01,800
either didn't listen to the whole speech

1901
01:23:08,570 --> 01:23:04,380
or didn't include that part and so

1902
01:23:11,930 --> 01:23:08,580
instead of discrediting UFOs you know at

1903
01:23:14,390 --> 01:23:11,940
least abroad it you know it repeated the

1904
01:23:17,270 --> 01:23:14,400
saucer story as genuine and then later

1905
01:23:20,270 --> 01:23:17,280
more you know says it yeah a man of

1906
01:23:25,010 --> 01:23:20,280
historian and man who Fletcher Platt

1907
01:23:28,910 --> 01:23:25,020
Pratt's status you know so it's

1908
01:23:31,450 --> 01:23:28,920
it's similar in a way to there are

1909
01:23:34,790 --> 01:23:31,460
probably at least a dozen newspaper

1910
01:23:36,830 --> 01:23:34,800
stories about aliens and UFOs and flying

1911
01:23:40,550 --> 01:23:36,840
saucers that have appeared on April 1st

1912
01:23:43,250 --> 01:23:40,560
as joked April Fool's Day jokes that

1913
01:23:44,470 --> 01:23:43,260
have later gone into UFO

1914
01:23:47,450 --> 01:23:44,480
more

1915
01:23:49,370 --> 01:23:47,460
including pictures of aliens and you

1916
01:23:52,790 --> 01:23:49,380
know little the silver man was supposed

1917
01:23:55,610 --> 01:23:52,800
to be a martian uh it's

1918
01:23:57,649 --> 01:23:55,620
it's astounding really

1919
01:24:00,110 --> 01:23:57,659
yeah he ran into a really similar

1920
01:24:02,270 --> 01:24:00,120
situation recently I was looking into uh

1921
01:24:05,149 --> 01:24:02,280
vehicle interference and

1922
01:24:08,209 --> 01:24:05,159
um one of the big incidents uh

1923
01:24:10,250 --> 01:24:08,219
it was listed in several of the

1924
01:24:13,490 --> 01:24:10,260
um the papers I was reading on it it was

1925
01:24:16,250 --> 01:24:13,500
uh originally quoted from Jacques valet

1926
01:24:18,290 --> 01:24:16,260
uh he was quoting a fictional story in a

1927
01:24:19,790 --> 01:24:18,300
men's magazine it turned out but that

1928
01:24:22,370 --> 01:24:19,800
kind of speaks to like

1929
01:24:24,050 --> 01:24:22,380
tracking down the sources uh for a lot

1930
01:24:25,669 --> 01:24:24,060
of these stories is really complicated

1931
01:24:27,830 --> 01:24:25,679
and um

1932
01:24:29,689 --> 01:24:27,840
I I know that you do quite a bit of it I

1933
01:24:32,270 --> 01:24:29,699
think you uh you just you just posted an

1934
01:24:34,910 --> 01:24:32,280
article about that about a um

1935
01:24:37,669 --> 01:24:34,920
it was an ad in a newspaper uh flying

1936
01:24:39,470 --> 01:24:37,679
saucers Over America where do you go

1937
01:24:42,770 --> 01:24:39,480
like where do you what do you recommend

1938
01:24:44,390 --> 01:24:42,780
people go to try to track down the

1939
01:24:45,709 --> 01:24:44,400
sources for for a lot of these claims

1940
01:24:47,149 --> 01:24:45,719
because I think that's really important

1941
01:24:49,550 --> 01:24:47,159
when you're reading like a book

1942
01:24:51,110 --> 01:24:49,560
especially with a popular person like

1943
01:24:53,270 --> 01:24:51,120
Jacques valet and you're reading his

1944
01:24:54,770 --> 01:24:53,280
sources I think people should really

1945
01:24:56,149 --> 01:24:54,780
look into a lot of that because some of

1946
01:24:58,729 --> 01:24:56,159
that can turn out to be complete

1947
01:25:00,590 --> 01:24:58,739
what what do you what do you do

1948
01:25:02,390 --> 01:25:00,600
since you've been around for quite a

1949
01:25:04,490 --> 01:25:02,400
while doing this kind of thing what are

1950
01:25:06,169 --> 01:25:04,500
your go-to resources for some of this

1951
01:25:08,149 --> 01:25:06,179
stuff and how do you how do you kind of

1952
01:25:10,910 --> 01:25:08,159
like cut through all that noise that

1953
01:25:13,010 --> 01:25:10,920
gets added and added and built up oh it

1954
01:25:14,750 --> 01:25:13,020
well it's a lot of work first of all but

1955
01:25:17,450 --> 01:25:14,760
you know it doesn't always have to be

1956
01:25:22,310 --> 01:25:17,460
and you know

1957
01:25:24,770 --> 01:25:22,320
okay well for one thing

1958
01:25:26,630 --> 01:25:24,780
try to flip through a book before you

1959
01:25:28,669 --> 01:25:26,640
read it and see if it has sources that

1960
01:25:30,169 --> 01:25:28,679
can be checked and if it doesn't it may

1961
01:25:33,590 --> 01:25:30,179
not be worth your time

1962
01:25:36,110 --> 01:25:33,600
so that's that's important um and you

1963
01:25:38,209 --> 01:25:36,120
know and if it does describe an event

1964
01:25:41,209 --> 01:25:38,219
hopefully there are enough details that

1965
01:25:43,790 --> 01:25:41,219
you can look it up somewhere like okay

1966
01:25:46,250 --> 01:25:43,800
an easy resource that people can use is

1967
01:25:49,430 --> 01:25:46,260
if you if you if you're curious about a

1968
01:25:51,709 --> 01:25:49,440
UFO case there's a there's a nycap site

1969
01:25:53,990 --> 01:25:51,719
run by Fran Ridge and it has a

1970
01:25:55,610 --> 01:25:54,000
chronology of cases you know go there

1971
01:25:57,410 --> 01:25:55,620
and if you know what year it is and

1972
01:25:59,510 --> 01:25:57,420
hopefully the the date and everything

1973
01:26:02,209 --> 01:25:59,520
you should be able to find some some

1974
01:26:04,430 --> 01:26:02,219
information on it yeah you know all the

1975
01:26:07,729 --> 01:26:04,440
major Blue Book cases I think they have

1976
01:26:09,590 --> 01:26:07,739
some information on so so that's that's

1977
01:26:12,709 --> 01:26:09,600
that's one way

1978
01:26:14,450 --> 01:26:12,719
um you know for something more modern

1979
01:26:16,490 --> 01:26:14,460
um you know there have been a number of

1980
01:26:19,250 --> 01:26:16,500
cases that were initially reported in

1981
01:26:20,810 --> 01:26:19,260
something like the National Enquirer so

1982
01:26:23,689 --> 01:26:20,820
you're going to have a hard time finding

1983
01:26:26,629 --> 01:26:23,699
anything solid on that and what's so

1984
01:26:29,030 --> 01:26:26,639
puzzling is like in the say like in the

1985
01:26:31,250 --> 01:26:29,040
60s through the

1986
01:26:34,129 --> 01:26:31,260
through the late 70s

1987
01:26:36,470 --> 01:26:34,139
they actually did have some some fairly

1988
01:26:39,050 --> 01:26:36,480
credible UFO stories they had Bob Pratt

1989
01:26:40,790 --> 01:26:39,060
and a good ufologists working for him

1990
01:26:42,050 --> 01:26:40,800
now the headlines might have been

1991
01:26:43,790 --> 01:26:42,060
sensational

1992
01:26:46,910 --> 01:26:43,800
the pictures that you know were

1993
01:26:49,490 --> 01:26:46,920
exaggerated but sure there was actually

1994
01:26:51,830 --> 01:26:49,500
a person you know in their reporting a

1995
01:26:52,910 --> 01:26:51,840
genuine event in most cases

1996
01:26:53,870 --> 01:26:52,920
so

1997
01:26:56,629 --> 01:26:53,880
um

1998
01:26:58,070 --> 01:26:56,639
but often there's not nothing else

1999
01:27:01,430 --> 01:26:58,080
um but there's a lot of great

2000
01:27:03,110 --> 01:27:01,440
information now so if if you can't find

2001
01:27:08,810 --> 01:27:03,120
the primary

2002
01:27:15,770 --> 01:27:12,110
um The afu's Archives they're not always

2003
01:27:19,910 --> 01:27:15,780
easy to search but they have these uh

2004
01:27:22,850 --> 01:27:19,920
UFO magazines that that had um sometimes

2005
01:27:26,209 --> 01:27:22,860
interviews with witnesses that you know

2006
01:27:28,790 --> 01:27:26,219
from the same month that it happened

2007
01:27:30,410 --> 01:27:28,800
um but you know just that that's that's

2008
01:27:33,830 --> 01:27:30,420
uh one

2009
01:27:35,450 --> 01:27:33,840
thing also is the um the the UFO

2010
01:27:38,750 --> 01:27:35,460
literature

2011
01:27:41,149 --> 01:27:38,760
um like I say avoid the things that were

2012
01:27:42,890 --> 01:27:41,159
done much later you know the earlier you

2013
01:27:45,410 --> 01:27:42,900
can get to the actual event the better

2014
01:27:48,129 --> 01:27:45,420
you know so the Cash Finder case it was

2015
01:27:50,750 --> 01:27:48,139
almost two months before the case was

2016
01:27:53,209 --> 01:27:50,760
investigated and before there was any

2017
01:27:56,209 --> 01:27:53,219
real investigation on Roswell you know

2018
01:27:58,550 --> 01:27:56,219
it was it was 1978 and the thing you

2019
01:28:01,970 --> 01:27:58,560
know the alleged events took place in

2020
01:28:04,550 --> 01:28:01,980
1947. so it's really hard with it with

2021
01:28:07,250 --> 01:28:04,560
the time that the dilution of memory and

2022
01:28:09,890 --> 01:28:07,260
everything else they did to it so you

2023
01:28:11,810 --> 01:28:09,900
know if there if there's something one

2024
01:28:14,810 --> 01:28:11,820
of the best documented cases is the

2025
01:28:16,790 --> 01:28:14,820
Socorro case in 1964 with Lani Zamora

2026
01:28:18,770 --> 01:28:16,800
you had you had people on the spot

2027
01:28:20,570 --> 01:28:18,780
almost immediately you've got the the

2028
01:28:22,550 --> 01:28:20,580
testimony

2029
01:28:27,470 --> 01:28:22,560
um you know there's not photographs of

2030
01:28:31,070 --> 01:28:27,480
the event happening but you you can get

2031
01:28:34,850 --> 01:28:31,080
you can just a flavor for the people

2032
01:28:37,550 --> 01:28:34,860
involved and what happened the way it

2033
01:28:40,490 --> 01:28:37,560
was investigated uh you can't actually

2034
01:28:42,950 --> 01:28:40,500
know what happened but you know it's as

2035
01:28:45,770 --> 01:28:42,960
close as we can get

2036
01:28:47,510 --> 01:28:45,780
since you mentioned uh the Socorro case

2037
01:28:49,970 --> 01:28:47,520
what what's your take on it do you think

2038
01:28:52,070 --> 01:28:49,980
that um I think you've probably heard

2039
01:28:53,450 --> 01:28:52,080
the explanation that it was uh some

2040
01:28:56,510 --> 01:28:53,460
college students playing a prank with a

2041
01:29:01,790 --> 01:28:56,520
balloon right what do you think of that

2042
01:29:03,350 --> 01:29:01,800
I'm not sold on that um there was um

2043
01:29:05,870 --> 01:29:03,360
uh now

2044
01:29:09,410 --> 01:29:05,880
I mentioned science fiction Skeptics a

2045
01:29:10,550 --> 01:29:09,420
couple of them and from Fletcher Pratt's

2046
01:29:11,689 --> 01:29:10,560
Club

2047
01:29:14,750 --> 01:29:11,699
um

2048
01:29:16,910 --> 01:29:14,760
Lester Del Rey and Jerry pornell

2049
01:29:18,770 --> 01:29:16,920
they um

2050
01:29:22,189 --> 01:29:18,780
they had

2051
01:29:24,709 --> 01:29:22,199
been put to a dare Lester Del Rey had by

2052
01:29:27,290 --> 01:29:24,719
a ufologist George early he said how can

2053
01:29:30,050 --> 01:29:27,300
you dismiss UFOs with if you don't

2054
01:29:31,910 --> 01:29:30,060
investigate them so he spent a Del Rey

2055
01:29:33,950 --> 01:29:31,920
spent about a year really looking into

2056
01:29:38,390 --> 01:29:33,960
it when he actually traveled to Socorro

2057
01:29:40,129 --> 01:29:38,400
with Cornell and he became convinced of

2058
01:29:41,930 --> 01:29:40,139
that scenario of the hoax by the

2059
01:29:42,830 --> 01:29:41,940
students

2060
01:29:45,470 --> 01:29:42,840
um

2061
01:29:49,490 --> 01:29:45,480
I'm not sold on it because

2062
01:29:54,530 --> 01:29:52,669
stagecraft that would be involved I mean

2063
01:29:56,510 --> 01:29:54,540
you have to have

2064
01:30:00,169 --> 01:29:56,520
you know

2065
01:30:05,090 --> 01:30:00,179
um officer Zamora was chasing a speeder

2066
01:30:07,370 --> 01:30:05,100
he was distracted by uh an explosion he

2067
01:30:10,850 --> 01:30:07,380
went to investigate and then saw UFO

2068
01:30:13,729 --> 01:30:10,860
there's just I just find highly unlikely

2069
01:30:16,669 --> 01:30:13,739
that they would that requires too many

2070
01:30:18,350 --> 01:30:16,679
conspirators I just don't think that

2071
01:30:20,149 --> 01:30:18,360
would that would work and then you've

2072
01:30:22,070 --> 01:30:20,159
got to you know have the mechanics of

2073
01:30:23,930 --> 01:30:22,080
whether it was you know and how did he

2074
01:30:28,250 --> 01:30:23,940
mistake a balloon for something with a

2075
01:30:31,189 --> 01:30:28,260
ladder and the the figures in suits I do

2076
01:30:33,590 --> 01:30:31,199
wonder that and I I do understand like

2077
01:30:36,649 --> 01:30:33,600
perception being fooled you know like

2078
01:30:38,570 --> 01:30:36,659
I've seen an optical illusion obviously

2079
01:30:41,450 --> 01:30:38,580
um I didn't walk away from that optical

2080
01:30:43,370 --> 01:30:41,460
illusion you know believing it the whole

2081
01:30:44,330 --> 01:30:43,380
time you know what I mean I know what

2082
01:30:47,390 --> 01:30:44,340
you mean

2083
01:30:48,709 --> 01:30:47,400
um with that uh with that smart case not

2084
01:30:50,870 --> 01:30:48,719
sure I feel about I've also seen a

2085
01:30:52,790 --> 01:30:50,880
similar explanation to the um the

2086
01:30:54,410 --> 01:30:52,800
Portage County case with Dale Spar you

2087
01:30:56,030 --> 01:30:54,420
were mentioning um police officers

2088
01:30:58,310 --> 01:30:56,040
retiring and it was kind of like yeah

2089
01:31:00,470 --> 01:30:58,320
getting harassed elsewhere is a good

2090
01:31:02,450 --> 01:31:00,480
example of that I saw another

2091
01:31:04,310 --> 01:31:02,460
um claim that students again and a

2092
01:31:06,110 --> 01:31:04,320
balloon again uh caused that entire

2093
01:31:08,149 --> 01:31:06,120
sighting and I don't know

2094
01:31:09,890 --> 01:31:08,159
where I fall on that either I find that

2095
01:31:12,590 --> 01:31:09,900
a little hard to believe too not that

2096
01:31:15,290 --> 01:31:12,600
the um you know the claims of that story

2097
01:31:17,750 --> 01:31:15,300
aren't hard to believe hey Lewis

2098
01:31:20,800 --> 01:31:17,760
you didn't lose power yeah yeah it's

2099
01:31:22,729 --> 01:31:20,810
back okay that's good it's a UFO

2100
01:31:24,350 --> 01:31:22,739
[Laughter]

2101
01:31:26,209 --> 01:31:24,360
more vehicle interference or house

2102
01:31:28,669 --> 01:31:26,219
interference now

2103
01:31:31,490 --> 01:31:28,679
we were we were talking about Socorro

2104
01:31:32,990 --> 01:31:31,500
be familiar yeah yep yep what do you

2105
01:31:35,090 --> 01:31:33,000
what do you lose what do you think about

2106
01:31:38,270 --> 01:31:35,100
the uh the story that that was students

2107
01:31:40,550 --> 01:31:38,280
hoaxing him uh with a big balloon

2108
01:31:41,770 --> 01:31:40,560
I think it's pretty plausible from some

2109
01:31:45,169 --> 01:31:41,780
things I've heard

2110
01:31:46,550 --> 01:31:45,179
I think somebody who was a professor or

2111
01:31:48,290 --> 01:31:46,560
something at the time has come forward

2112
01:31:51,050 --> 01:31:48,300
now and said that

2113
01:31:52,550 --> 01:31:51,060
yes he like he was sitting on it or

2114
01:31:56,330 --> 01:31:52,560
something like that and he like he knew

2115
01:31:58,070 --> 01:31:56,340
about some sort of hoax by students and

2116
01:32:00,770 --> 01:31:58,080
yeah I think it was something like that

2117
01:32:01,970 --> 01:32:00,780
though interesting there was supposed to

2118
01:32:05,209 --> 01:32:01,980
be I don't know if you guys talked about

2119
01:32:07,250 --> 01:32:05,219
it when I was gone but um wasn't it some

2120
01:32:09,229 --> 01:32:07,260
other idea about that is that um the

2121
01:32:11,689 --> 01:32:09,239
lunar modules were being tested like

2122
01:32:13,970 --> 01:32:11,699
sort of 20 miles away or something

2123
01:32:16,370 --> 01:32:13,980
really yeah

2124
01:32:18,290 --> 01:32:16,380
and like nothing like not the actual

2125
01:32:20,930 --> 01:32:18,300
lunar modules um they never tested those

2126
01:32:24,169 --> 01:32:20,940
on Earth but um the um the the practice

2127
01:32:26,750 --> 01:32:24,179
one that others were using but I don't

2128
01:32:28,790 --> 01:32:26,760
imagine it would like stray that far so

2129
01:32:31,930 --> 01:32:28,800
I don't know I don't think it was

2130
01:32:36,950 --> 01:32:31,940
yeah it's an interesting one though yeah

2131
01:32:39,490 --> 01:32:36,960
supposedly it it was relatively close by

2132
01:32:43,729 --> 01:32:39,500
but it didn't have the range the the

2133
01:32:47,030 --> 01:32:43,739
flights were tracked so there's really

2134
01:32:50,030 --> 01:32:47,040
not much genuinely unearthly about the

2135
01:32:52,490 --> 01:32:50,040
Socorro case you know it it's technology

2136
01:32:54,169 --> 01:32:52,500
that we could actually build it's just

2137
01:32:58,490 --> 01:32:54,179
like we were talking about the airships

2138
01:33:01,310 --> 01:32:58,500
it's in the wrong time and place so

2139
01:33:03,890 --> 01:33:01,320
you know so maybe maybe that's a maybe

2140
01:33:08,330 --> 01:33:03,900
that's more of a time travel or incident

2141
01:33:10,550 --> 01:33:08,340
you know and not a not an actual UFO

2142
01:33:13,189 --> 01:33:10,560
been reading your Michael swords

2143
01:33:16,010 --> 01:33:13,199
um so if uh

2144
01:33:18,050 --> 01:33:16,020
if there's so many negative or at least

2145
01:33:20,450 --> 01:33:18,060
like kind of like problematic elements

2146
01:33:22,070 --> 01:33:20,460
that we've been describing

2147
01:33:24,350 --> 01:33:22,080
um but you know most people get

2148
01:33:26,750 --> 01:33:24,360
interested in the subject it comes from

2149
01:33:28,490 --> 01:33:26,760
like a genuine place of interest and a

2150
01:33:31,550 --> 01:33:28,500
lot of the Skeptics too uh like Jason

2151
01:33:33,229 --> 01:33:31,560
colavito was a form moderator on like

2152
01:33:36,050 --> 01:33:33,239
Paranormal of some kind or at least 40

2153
01:33:38,030 --> 01:33:36,060
and I don't want to say paranormal

2154
01:33:39,410 --> 01:33:38,040
um yeah back in the day Mick West was

2155
01:33:40,490 --> 01:33:39,420
getting interested in kind of all this

2156
01:33:42,050 --> 01:33:40,500
stuff that's why I started talking to

2157
01:33:43,790 --> 01:33:42,060
people about contrails and got into it

2158
01:33:45,290 --> 01:33:43,800
uh Brian Dunning has a similar thing

2159
01:33:47,030 --> 01:33:45,300
that's why I called the skeptoy because

2160
01:33:49,010 --> 01:33:47,040
he kept being called skeptoid on the

2161
01:33:49,729 --> 01:33:49,020
forums where he's looking at the 40 and

2162
01:33:53,629 --> 01:33:49,739
stuff

2163
01:33:56,870 --> 01:33:53,639
uh what's uh what's inspiring and uh

2164
01:33:58,669 --> 01:33:56,880
sort of optimistic and exciting to you

2165
01:34:05,510 --> 01:33:58,679
Kurt at this point in your engagement

2166
01:34:05,520 --> 01:34:08,350
um

2167
01:34:14,689 --> 01:34:11,410
the people the stories and the mythology

2168
01:34:16,129 --> 01:34:14,699
uh there's there's one sign that I

2169
01:34:20,030 --> 01:34:16,139
really

2170
01:34:22,430 --> 01:34:20,040
genuine whether it was a

2171
01:34:24,890 --> 01:34:22,440
extraterrestrial spacecraft or not it

2172
01:34:27,709 --> 01:34:24,900
was 1949 April

2173
01:34:30,649 --> 01:34:27,719
um it was uh Charles Moore and what's

2174
01:34:34,250 --> 01:34:30,659
funny about it is he became a skeptic uh

2175
01:34:36,770 --> 01:34:34,260
he dismissed both sakuro and Roswell

2176
01:34:40,610 --> 01:34:36,780
um and it's you know I think he

2177
01:34:42,649 --> 01:34:40,620
supported the lunar lander type idea and

2178
01:34:47,090 --> 01:34:42,659
you know he's and he was actually flying

2179
01:34:50,270 --> 01:34:47,100
Mogul balloons so uh but he saw back

2180
01:34:54,649 --> 01:34:50,280
then in 1949 with a team of of other

2181
01:34:56,149 --> 01:34:54,659
people launching test balloons at White

2182
01:34:58,910 --> 01:34:56,159
Sands

2183
01:35:05,209 --> 01:35:01,189
he was following the balloon that they

2184
01:35:10,970 --> 01:35:05,219
had launched through a theodolite and

2185
01:35:12,290 --> 01:35:10,980
spotted this oval-shaped object that um

2186
01:35:14,750 --> 01:35:12,300
you know

2187
01:35:17,810 --> 01:35:14,760
seem to fly down

2188
01:35:20,090 --> 01:35:17,820
and then back back up again moving at

2189
01:35:21,649 --> 01:35:20,100
great speed you know and all the people

2190
01:35:23,450 --> 01:35:21,659
saw it he happened to be looking through

2191
01:35:25,930 --> 01:35:23,460
the eyepiece and got got the best look

2192
01:35:31,430 --> 01:35:25,940
at it and let me see if I can move here

2193
01:35:35,090 --> 01:35:31,440
no going the wrong way so this time

2194
01:35:36,649 --> 01:35:35,100
um on keyhoe's book there that that's

2195
01:35:38,870 --> 01:35:36,659
the shave that's an imaginative

2196
01:35:42,890 --> 01:35:38,880
rendering of it but that's that's the

2197
01:35:44,629 --> 01:35:42,900
saucer that um or the ellipsoid thing

2198
01:35:47,390 --> 01:35:44,639
that um

2199
01:35:50,149 --> 01:35:47,400
that more and his people saw it you know

2200
01:35:53,149 --> 01:35:50,159
in when you talk about trained observers

2201
01:35:56,169 --> 01:35:53,159
that was a group of them right there and

2202
01:35:59,330 --> 01:35:56,179
it was his testimony uh originally

2203
01:36:03,410 --> 01:35:59,340
anonymously as just a scientist and then

2204
01:36:07,490 --> 01:36:03,420
later uh you know actually with his name

2205
01:36:09,169 --> 01:36:07,500
and title and described

2206
01:36:14,810 --> 01:36:09,179
that was

2207
01:36:16,610 --> 01:36:14,820
a of a scientist supporting UFOs in any

2208
01:36:19,010 --> 01:36:16,620
way is being incredible and it really

2209
01:36:21,470 --> 01:36:19,020
helped boost the topic you know you had

2210
01:36:23,750 --> 01:36:21,480
pilots and things that was one thing but

2211
01:36:26,149 --> 01:36:23,760
you know you know but here was a man in

2212
01:36:28,129 --> 01:36:26,159
a white coat that you know he he was a

2213
01:36:29,330 --> 01:36:28,139
UFO witness and he wasn't crazy he

2214
01:36:32,149 --> 01:36:29,340
shouldn't have been

2215
01:36:34,070 --> 01:36:32,159
so I that that signing has always

2216
01:36:38,149 --> 01:36:34,080
interested me um

2217
01:36:40,250 --> 01:36:38,159
and uh I recently uh I mentioned this

2218
01:36:42,830 --> 01:36:40,260
before uh Barry Greenmore would heard

2219
01:36:44,209 --> 01:36:42,840
that I was uh interested in the case and

2220
01:36:48,169 --> 01:36:44,219
he sent me his folder on it which

2221
01:36:51,470 --> 01:36:48,179
included his correspondence with uh with

2222
01:36:54,590 --> 01:36:51,480
more Professor Moore including his

2223
01:36:56,689 --> 01:36:54,600
sketch of the UFO and I intend to write

2224
01:36:58,610 --> 01:36:56,699
a story about that and publish that I

2225
01:37:01,010 --> 01:36:58,620
just think it's you know it's of course

2226
01:37:03,470 --> 01:37:01,020
it was drawn years later but

2227
01:37:05,510 --> 01:37:03,480
I just I just find the case fascinating

2228
01:37:07,550 --> 01:37:05,520
and that was one of the you know I kind

2229
01:37:09,410 --> 01:37:07,560
of alluded to that earlier it's not it's

2230
01:37:11,629 --> 01:37:09,420
not a hit but you know it's a fly bar

2231
01:37:13,430 --> 01:37:11,639
and run it's it's over and done you

2232
01:37:15,590 --> 01:37:13,440
don't really get that good of a look at

2233
01:37:17,510 --> 01:37:15,600
things but you know the way it flew and

2234
01:37:19,189 --> 01:37:17,520
you know and it couldn't be a been a

2235
01:37:22,550 --> 01:37:19,199
balloon because their balloon was right

2236
01:37:24,890 --> 01:37:22,560
there uh and you know it it obviously

2237
01:37:27,169 --> 01:37:24,900
demonstrated

2238
01:37:29,510 --> 01:37:27,179
uh yeah it's been this you know there

2239
01:37:32,330 --> 01:37:29,520
have been skeptic senses said oh it's a

2240
01:37:34,790 --> 01:37:32,340
bowline that crossed the atmosphere of

2241
01:37:36,830 --> 01:37:34,800
the earth and flew out uh but you know

2242
01:37:38,570 --> 01:37:36,840
I'm I'm not sure that I buy that you

2243
01:37:40,189 --> 01:37:38,580
know that's one that I take is an

2244
01:37:43,010 --> 01:37:40,199
unknown you know and I just I don't

2245
01:37:44,810 --> 01:37:43,020
suggest any explanation for it but you

2246
01:37:47,209 --> 01:37:44,820
know I think that's one of the best UFO

2247
01:37:49,070 --> 01:37:47,219
cases of all time

2248
01:37:49,900 --> 01:37:49,080
can't believe you you love those bull

2249
01:37:52,129 --> 01:37:49,910
rides right

2250
01:37:55,610 --> 01:37:52,139
[Laughter]

2251
01:37:57,590 --> 01:37:55,620
not directly yeah yeah well doc but

2252
01:38:00,950 --> 01:37:57,600
that's a good point though like Dr uh

2253
01:38:04,870 --> 01:38:00,960
valet and uh Dr Davis have that paper uh

2254
01:38:07,310 --> 01:38:04,880
from 2003 I believe uh ink measurability

2255
01:38:09,950 --> 01:38:07,320
Orthodoxy and all my strangeness and

2256
01:38:13,430 --> 01:38:09,960
they uh talk about how there are these

2257
01:38:15,110 --> 01:38:13,440
associations between meteor uh entries

2258
01:38:17,149 --> 01:38:15,120
into the atmosphere and then

2259
01:38:19,129 --> 01:38:17,159
observations of UFOs and then they

2260
01:38:21,649 --> 01:38:19,139
speculate about oh well maybe like the

2261
01:38:23,990 --> 01:38:21,659
UFO is actually imitating

2262
01:38:26,510 --> 01:38:24,000
um natural phenomena maybe that's why

2263
01:38:28,550 --> 01:38:26,520
they sort of have these strange forms

2264
01:38:30,649 --> 01:38:28,560
um you know in my my opinion is most

2265
01:38:32,450 --> 01:38:30,659
people here know is that

2266
01:38:34,490 --> 01:38:32,460
um the

2267
01:38:37,310 --> 01:38:34,500
um intelligence reports from the USAF

2268
01:38:39,470 --> 01:38:37,320
CIA and UK Minister of Defense saying

2269
01:38:41,390 --> 01:38:39,480
that they have personally concluded for

2270
01:38:43,250 --> 01:38:41,400
decades that they think that uh these

2271
01:38:45,470 --> 01:38:43,260
very anomalous ones are some kind of

2272
01:38:47,270 --> 01:38:45,480
atmospheric phenomena um I think there's

2273
01:38:49,010 --> 01:38:47,280
some evidence for that since all

2274
01:38:50,689 --> 01:38:49,020
lighting's been proven in the journals

2275
01:38:52,910 --> 01:38:50,699
now but

2276
01:38:55,070 --> 01:38:52,920
um you know current like do you think

2277
01:38:56,629 --> 01:38:55,080
like regardless of what each individual

2278
01:38:58,669 --> 01:38:56,639
thing is is this something that's just

2279
01:39:01,189 --> 01:38:58,679
going to keep kind of moving on its own

2280
01:39:03,950 --> 01:39:01,199
uh and sort of momentum now uh

2281
01:39:06,410 --> 01:39:03,960
regardless of like uh Edward short of

2282
01:39:07,669 --> 01:39:06,420
like you know disclosure like the

2283
01:39:09,590 --> 01:39:07,679
government coming out saying like yes

2284
01:39:10,850 --> 01:39:09,600
this is actually what's happening and

2285
01:39:12,110 --> 01:39:10,860
that might even be conclusive like do

2286
01:39:13,490 --> 01:39:12,120
you see this ending or do you think this

2287
01:39:18,169 --> 01:39:13,500
is just going to be like something that

2288
01:39:23,870 --> 01:39:20,629
I think even if

2289
01:39:25,610 --> 01:39:23,880
even if a class of UFOs was discovered

2290
01:39:28,370 --> 01:39:25,620
to be atmospheric there would still be

2291
01:39:29,930 --> 01:39:28,380
other things that were seen so I think

2292
01:39:32,030 --> 01:39:29,940
it's basically we're stuck with it

2293
01:39:34,490 --> 01:39:32,040
forever and you know there's there's so

2294
01:39:36,169 --> 01:39:34,500
many beliefs attached to it they'll

2295
01:39:37,729 --> 01:39:36,179
never die

2296
01:39:41,209 --> 01:39:37,739
um

2297
01:39:43,669 --> 01:39:41,219
and you know so it what what's really

2298
01:39:46,070 --> 01:39:43,679
strange is you know of course we had the

2299
01:39:48,050 --> 01:39:46,080
2004 Nimitz incident and there have been

2300
01:39:50,330 --> 01:39:48,060
some other things which you know now

2301
01:39:53,229 --> 01:39:50,340
we're we're

2302
01:39:55,430 --> 01:39:53,239
the Navy has really confused things by

2303
01:39:58,970 --> 01:39:55,440
essentially calling unidentified

2304
01:40:00,669 --> 01:39:58,980
aircraft UAP

2305
01:40:03,370 --> 01:40:00,679
um so

2306
01:40:07,490 --> 01:40:03,380
that you know

2307
01:40:10,610 --> 01:40:07,500
somehow UFOs and in drones and balloons

2308
01:40:14,090 --> 01:40:10,620
are all mixed up together again in a

2309
01:40:16,490 --> 01:40:14,100
really strange way and by officials and

2310
01:40:19,070 --> 01:40:16,500
promoted that way that that makes things

2311
01:40:20,090 --> 01:40:19,080
much harder to sort out

2312
01:40:22,850 --> 01:40:20,100
um

2313
01:40:27,430 --> 01:40:22,860
but with the with the government stamp

2314
01:40:31,610 --> 01:40:27,440
of approval in funding it's really

2315
01:40:36,770 --> 01:40:34,790
UFOs as a business it's a big problem to

2316
01:40:38,990 --> 01:40:36,780
arm I mean see that's one of the reasons

2317
01:40:41,870 --> 01:40:39,000
that things that kind of died out

2318
01:40:44,570 --> 01:40:41,880
well it never died out but there was a

2319
01:40:47,689 --> 01:40:44,580
big lull after the closure of Project

2320
01:40:50,689 --> 01:40:47,699
Blue Book and the the Conan report in

2321
01:40:53,510 --> 01:40:50,699
scientific Community had had an excuse

2322
01:40:58,070 --> 01:40:53,520
not to look at UFOs

2323
01:41:02,810 --> 01:41:00,169
but you know it's got legs with the

2324
01:41:04,490 --> 01:41:02,820
public it'll always be there uh the kind

2325
01:41:07,729 --> 01:41:04,500
of report reminded me of one thing I

2326
01:41:08,930 --> 01:41:07,739
wanted wanted to mention so when um

2327
01:41:12,430 --> 01:41:08,940
when

2328
01:41:16,390 --> 01:41:12,440
um debunkers take on UFOs

2329
01:41:19,550 --> 01:41:16,400
they're really not uh very

2330
01:41:23,229 --> 01:41:19,560
Discerning and they paint everyone with

2331
01:41:25,970 --> 01:41:23,239
the same brush and they they talk about

2332
01:41:28,610 --> 01:41:25,980
contactees they make no difference

2333
01:41:31,669 --> 01:41:28,620
between a contactee claim of some you

2334
01:41:33,590 --> 01:41:31,679
know space ride to Venus with a person

2335
01:41:36,070 --> 01:41:33,600
that's you know has legitimate interest

2336
01:41:40,070 --> 01:41:36,080
in UFOs from a scientific perspective

2337
01:41:43,790 --> 01:41:40,080
they just you know they're they just

2338
01:41:47,510 --> 01:41:43,800
treat it like a circus and you know it's

2339
01:41:50,930 --> 01:41:47,520
all junk to them and you know

2340
01:41:53,209 --> 01:41:50,940
that that's you know people talk about

2341
01:41:54,709 --> 01:41:53,219
the stigma well that that's part of it I

2342
01:41:55,250 --> 01:41:54,719
mean if you

2343
01:41:57,770 --> 01:41:55,260
um

2344
01:41:59,209 --> 01:41:57,780
if you look at any any topic there's

2345
01:42:00,709 --> 01:41:59,219
problems with it you know in art

2346
01:42:04,070 --> 01:42:00,719
galleries they're fakes hanging

2347
01:42:05,930 --> 01:42:04,080
alongside real masterpieces and they're

2348
01:42:09,229 --> 01:42:05,940
the counterfeiting is a huge problem

2349
01:42:11,030 --> 01:42:09,239
there's fakery I mean so I'm not sure

2350
01:42:13,250 --> 01:42:11,040
how much respect there is for the diet

2351
01:42:15,830 --> 01:42:13,260
book industry but how many of those are

2352
01:42:17,570 --> 01:42:15,840
actually diet books are actually genuine

2353
01:42:19,669 --> 01:42:17,580
there's just you know there's there's

2354
01:42:21,890 --> 01:42:19,679
thousands of them

2355
01:42:25,250 --> 01:42:21,900
um there's problems with just about any

2356
01:42:26,450 --> 01:42:25,260
topic you know it's really up to

2357
01:42:29,390 --> 01:42:26,460
um

2358
01:42:31,070 --> 01:42:29,400
I guess it's up to the bar to sort it

2359
01:42:34,669 --> 01:42:31,080
out and be aware that there are a lot of

2360
01:42:39,830 --> 01:42:38,330
you know uh talking about debunker bias

2361
01:42:42,290 --> 01:42:39,840
and stuff I can I can speak to

2362
01:42:44,629 --> 01:42:42,300
personally I've gone kind of through the

2363
01:42:46,010 --> 01:42:44,639
uh the believer to skeptic Journey twice

2364
01:42:48,550 --> 01:42:46,020
now

2365
01:42:50,689 --> 01:42:48,560
um during my interest in UFOs and it's

2366
01:42:53,930 --> 01:42:50,699
when you get to that kind of skeptical

2367
01:42:55,490 --> 01:42:53,940
side it's very easy to fall into kind of

2368
01:42:57,050 --> 01:42:55,500
the cynical trappings that come along

2369
01:42:59,149 --> 01:42:57,060
with that

2370
01:43:01,129 --> 01:42:59,159
um to kind of start writing things off

2371
01:43:03,830 --> 01:43:01,139
and just thinking

2372
01:43:06,530 --> 01:43:03,840
that it's uh it's all that way um which

2373
01:43:08,990 --> 01:43:06,540
and I think that's uh Skeptics kind of

2374
01:43:10,729 --> 01:43:09,000
cognitive biases get brought up a lot

2375
01:43:12,290 --> 01:43:10,739
but I think it's important to

2376
01:43:14,330 --> 01:43:12,300
distinguish that like everybody in this

2377
01:43:16,490 --> 01:43:14,340
field has is bringing their own biases

2378
01:43:19,010 --> 01:43:16,500
whether it's bringing the eth along with

2379
01:43:20,510 --> 01:43:19,020
you or it's becoming or being a cynical

2380
01:43:22,910 --> 01:43:20,520
skeptic so I think

2381
01:43:24,229 --> 01:43:22,920
we've got to realize that we're all well

2382
01:43:25,609 --> 01:43:24,239
we have different perspectives on all

2383
01:43:27,169 --> 01:43:25,619
these things we're all coming in with

2384
01:43:29,270 --> 01:43:27,179
cognitive biases that's a very natural

2385
01:43:31,430 --> 01:43:29,280
thing to do it but if you're aware of it

2386
01:43:32,870 --> 01:43:31,440
you can kind of you know work with them

2387
01:43:35,330 --> 01:43:32,880
and work around them and not let them

2388
01:43:37,010 --> 01:43:35,340
kind of take you down that path but yeah

2389
01:43:39,520 --> 01:43:37,020
that I think it is kind of a fair

2390
01:43:41,109 --> 01:43:39,530
characterization that you put out there

2391
01:43:46,189 --> 01:43:41,119
[Music]

2392
01:43:49,570 --> 01:43:46,199
you know so the the the key um offenders

2393
01:43:53,030 --> 01:43:49,580
there are Michael scharmer and um

2394
01:43:54,530 --> 01:43:53,040
uh Neil deGrasse Tyson no that was would

2395
01:43:57,649 --> 01:43:54,540
be the two that I would think of that

2396
01:44:01,129 --> 01:43:57,659
that typically take that approach you

2397
01:44:04,609 --> 01:44:01,139
know and they they think if you mention

2398
01:44:07,550 --> 01:44:04,619
UFOs they'll immediately to Spring to

2399
01:44:10,129 --> 01:44:07,560
one of the ridiculous examples

2400
01:44:12,050 --> 01:44:10,139
um so yeah it's it's an unfair

2401
01:44:15,050 --> 01:44:12,060
characterization

2402
01:44:18,229 --> 01:44:15,060
you know there's you know there there

2403
01:44:20,870 --> 01:44:18,239
are a lot of you know you go to a UFO

2404
01:44:23,570 --> 01:44:20,880
conference you'll find a lot of uh uh

2405
01:44:25,910 --> 01:44:23,580
crystals for sale and you know all all

2406
01:44:28,250 --> 01:44:25,920
these uh weird wacky beliefs and

2407
01:44:32,270 --> 01:44:28,260
everything but it it's sort of the

2408
01:44:34,370 --> 01:44:32,280
sideshow to you know a small you know

2409
01:44:36,350 --> 01:44:34,380
you won't find many serious UFO

2410
01:44:39,890 --> 01:44:36,360
researchers at these conferences or even

2411
01:44:42,050 --> 01:44:39,900
invited to speak at them so I don't know

2412
01:44:44,209 --> 01:44:42,060
that's and you know speaking of

2413
01:44:46,310 --> 01:44:44,219
conferences they the first ones were

2414
01:44:51,530 --> 01:44:46,320
devoted to people like Georgia damski

2415
01:44:54,649 --> 01:44:51,540
and and then the contactees so we the uh

2416
01:44:57,350 --> 01:44:54,659
nycap tried to clean up that but uh you

2417
01:44:58,850 --> 01:44:57,360
know then it's it's always been it's

2418
01:45:02,030 --> 01:44:58,860
always been a battle between the

2419
01:45:03,729 --> 01:45:02,040
scientific desire and the uh the sort of

2420
01:45:06,350 --> 01:45:03,739
The Fringe version

2421
01:45:08,030 --> 01:45:06,360
that that's that's always going to

2422
01:45:11,090 --> 01:45:08,040
happen you'll never

2423
01:45:12,649 --> 01:45:11,100
remove that you know and without the

2424
01:45:14,689 --> 01:45:12,659
sideshow I don't know if new people

2425
01:45:18,290 --> 01:45:14,699
would be interested you know entering

2426
01:45:20,209 --> 01:45:18,300
the the topic you know it it gets you

2427
01:45:23,750 --> 01:45:20,219
know it's terrible but you know that

2428
01:45:25,490 --> 01:45:23,760
that noisy nuisances those cases you

2429
01:45:28,790 --> 01:45:25,500
know are what get up gets on the news

2430
01:45:31,129 --> 01:45:28,800
more often than the genuine ones

2431
01:45:32,629 --> 01:45:31,139
do you do you think that the noise is

2432
01:45:36,470 --> 01:45:32,639
the signal

2433
01:45:38,930 --> 01:45:36,480
a lot of times yeah it's it's definitely

2434
01:45:41,330 --> 01:45:38,940
part of it

2435
01:45:43,850 --> 01:45:41,340
I'm just uh pulling up your website here

2436
01:45:46,250 --> 01:45:43,860
uh Kurt just wanted to show everybody

2437
01:45:49,790 --> 01:45:46,260
um I was reading uh this article uh the

2438
01:45:51,550 --> 01:45:49,800
NSA cash Landry UFO document and I just

2439
01:45:54,590 --> 01:45:51,560
wanted to highlight how much information

2440
01:45:56,629 --> 01:45:54,600
that's really neat that you find uh in

2441
01:45:59,649 --> 01:45:56,639
your research this is something I'd

2442
01:46:04,010 --> 01:45:59,659
never seen before here the introduction

2443
01:46:05,330 --> 01:46:04,020
of between valet and Hal put off really

2444
01:46:07,609 --> 01:46:05,340
neat

2445
01:46:10,310 --> 01:46:07,619
um you know reveals how he met Dr putoff

2446
01:46:12,890 --> 01:46:10,320
Who also worked at SRI so then visited

2447
01:46:14,930 --> 01:46:12,900
the lab through that work and then I

2448
01:46:18,109 --> 01:46:14,940
think this is really interesting

2449
01:46:19,970 --> 01:46:18,119
just in November 1973 could off told

2450
01:46:22,070 --> 01:46:19,980
valet that he'd found the leader of the

2451
01:46:24,290 --> 01:46:22,080
CIA group that monitors the UFO field

2452
01:46:25,850 --> 01:46:24,300
recently a biologist was put in charge

2453
01:46:28,430 --> 01:46:25,860
house says the new man doesn't want to

2454
01:46:30,290 --> 01:46:28,440
see me yet in February 1974 put off call

2455
01:46:31,970 --> 01:46:30,300
to tell me that this in intelligence

2456
01:46:35,689 --> 01:46:31,980
contact without his house I meet him

2457
01:46:39,530 --> 01:46:35,699
valet met Dr Christopher green nicknamed

2458
01:46:42,530 --> 01:46:39,540
kit interesting 74. and this is still

2459
01:46:46,070 --> 01:46:42,540
something that we're seeing um in the

2460
01:46:48,890 --> 01:46:46,080
modern conversation uh kit green is

2461
01:46:51,470 --> 01:46:48,900
still uh doing things and uh you were

2462
01:46:55,250 --> 01:46:51,480
just describing the

2463
01:46:57,530 --> 01:46:55,260
um mixing of sort of the science and how

2464
01:46:59,450 --> 01:46:57,540
it's been sort of minimized

2465
01:47:00,709 --> 01:46:59,460
at the conferences and stuff and would

2466
01:47:02,390 --> 01:47:00,719
you be able to just with your knowledge

2467
01:47:04,729 --> 01:47:02,400
about this history would you build a

2468
01:47:07,129 --> 01:47:04,739
comment a little bit on like what you

2469
01:47:09,229 --> 01:47:07,139
see as the

2470
01:47:11,750 --> 01:47:09,239
the issues like these guys are real

2471
01:47:12,770 --> 01:47:11,760
scientists and then uh you know they

2472
01:47:15,530 --> 01:47:12,780
sort of

2473
01:47:18,830 --> 01:47:15,540
created the grounds for this merger of

2474
01:47:20,570 --> 01:47:18,840
the more new age with this

2475
01:47:22,609 --> 01:47:20,580
um

2476
01:47:24,709 --> 01:47:22,619
talk about that process a little bit

2477
01:47:27,410 --> 01:47:24,719
from your uh your experience researching

2478
01:47:34,689 --> 01:47:31,310
well it it confounds me it's so some of

2479
01:47:37,910 --> 01:47:34,699
the the most respected names in ufology

2480
01:47:40,370 --> 01:47:37,920
uh from this group in you know ballet

2481
01:47:44,149 --> 01:47:40,380
Christopher green how put off you know

2482
01:47:47,810 --> 01:47:44,159
or involved in the uh the psychic

2483
01:47:50,810 --> 01:47:47,820
research which they they renamed

2484
01:47:53,450 --> 01:47:50,820
um you know just like uh flying saucers

2485
01:47:56,209 --> 01:47:53,460
and became UFOs and their uaps you know

2486
01:47:58,370 --> 01:47:56,219
it became remote viewing it was a a more

2487
01:48:00,350 --> 01:47:58,380
scientific more respectable name and it

2488
01:48:02,689 --> 01:48:00,360
took it away from witchcraft

2489
01:48:06,109 --> 01:48:02,699
but all

2490
01:48:08,270 --> 01:48:06,119
um and you as you scroll by there I saw

2491
01:48:10,550 --> 01:48:08,280
Dr John Alexander you know he was

2492
01:48:13,189 --> 01:48:10,560
heavily involved in the remote viewing

2493
01:48:16,129 --> 01:48:13,199
program too and you know so surprising

2494
01:48:18,470 --> 01:48:16,139
people were and

2495
01:48:20,390 --> 01:48:18,480
they um

2496
01:48:22,570 --> 01:48:20,400
they really dressed that up as science

2497
01:48:25,669 --> 01:48:22,580
but it was involved in some some really

2498
01:48:28,370 --> 01:48:25,679
kind of spooky stuff and you know which

2499
01:48:30,709 --> 01:48:28,380
eventually took us to you know to jump

2500
01:48:33,649 --> 01:48:30,719
several steps to Skinwalker Ranch and

2501
01:48:35,149 --> 01:48:33,659
the the supernatural tales that came

2502
01:48:35,810 --> 01:48:35,159
from there

2503
01:48:37,550 --> 01:48:35,820
um

2504
01:48:39,109 --> 01:48:37,560
and

2505
01:48:42,109 --> 01:48:39,119
so

2506
01:48:44,689 --> 01:48:42,119
but you know there was a huge well one

2507
01:48:47,209 --> 01:48:44,699
interesting thing about Roswell it came

2508
01:48:49,850 --> 01:48:47,219
along in a time where ufology in general

2509
01:48:54,229 --> 01:48:49,860
was taking this approach to to more like

2510
01:48:55,689 --> 01:48:54,239
this paranormal explanation for UFOs and

2511
01:48:58,669 --> 01:48:55,699
Roswell

2512
01:49:01,010 --> 01:48:58,679
took took us back to the nuts and bolts

2513
01:49:04,070 --> 01:49:01,020
and the the Extraterrestrial hypothesis

2514
01:49:06,850 --> 01:49:04,080
and and sort of

2515
01:49:09,530 --> 01:49:06,860
propped it up for another generation

2516
01:49:10,729 --> 01:49:09,540
but a lot of people

2517
01:49:12,109 --> 01:49:10,739
um

2518
01:49:14,450 --> 01:49:12,119
that

2519
01:49:16,609 --> 01:49:14,460
you know John Keel was was one of them

2520
01:49:19,729 --> 01:49:16,619
that you know he had a more uh

2521
01:49:21,830 --> 01:49:19,739
more of a paranormal splan on things he

2522
01:49:24,290 --> 01:49:21,840
called himself a demonologist at one

2523
01:49:27,470 --> 01:49:24,300
point so uh

2524
01:49:29,930 --> 01:49:27,480
yeah it's I I don't know I I can only

2525
01:49:31,490 --> 01:49:29,940
know that it exists and it confounds me

2526
01:49:35,030 --> 01:49:31,500
I

2527
01:49:39,649 --> 01:49:36,950
it makes me wonder if there is

2528
01:49:43,310 --> 01:49:39,659
interested in the Paranormal and psychic

2529
01:49:45,590 --> 01:49:43,320
phenomena well maybe the UFO aspect that

2530
01:49:48,050 --> 01:49:45,600
they're also interested in was never as

2531
01:49:49,850 --> 01:49:48,060
genuine as I was

2532
01:49:51,649 --> 01:49:49,860
you know the package that I was sold

2533
01:49:53,990 --> 01:49:51,659
maybe that wasn't as genuine as I

2534
01:49:55,790 --> 01:49:54,000
thought it was

2535
01:49:58,370 --> 01:49:55,800
I get the impression that these people

2536
01:50:00,410 --> 01:49:58,380
like put off and kick green and uh even

2537
01:50:02,450 --> 01:50:00,420
Dr Gary Nolan I think that they

2538
01:50:04,250 --> 01:50:02,460
legitimately might believe in this stuff

2539
01:50:06,169 --> 01:50:04,260
I think it's just

2540
01:50:07,729 --> 01:50:06,179
and you can have these people with

2541
01:50:09,530 --> 01:50:07,739
degrees these scientists that believe

2542
01:50:11,570 --> 01:50:09,540
these things I think it's

2543
01:50:13,910 --> 01:50:11,580
um the way they come to these beliefs

2544
01:50:16,430 --> 01:50:13,920
that's the distinction right with math

2545
01:50:19,370 --> 01:50:16,440
and science that's all kind of

2546
01:50:22,910 --> 01:50:19,380
um deductive reasoning there's there's

2547
01:50:25,310 --> 01:50:22,920
actual facts to point to but with kind

2548
01:50:27,770 --> 01:50:25,320
of Supernatural stuff or you know this

2549
01:50:30,530 --> 01:50:27,780
kind of out there are woo stuff that's

2550
01:50:33,229 --> 01:50:30,540
all kind of uh inductive right it's a

2551
01:50:35,510 --> 01:50:33,239
it's an intuitional belief like you you

2552
01:50:37,850 --> 01:50:35,520
internally in your feelings kind of lead

2553
01:50:39,470 --> 01:50:37,860
you to these points but that kind of

2554
01:50:40,790 --> 01:50:39,480
those kind of beliefs can often be wrong

2555
01:50:43,070 --> 01:50:40,800
I mean like

2556
01:50:45,350 --> 01:50:43,080
if I knew nothing and went outside

2557
01:50:47,090 --> 01:50:45,360
during the day I would say that the the

2558
01:50:48,350 --> 01:50:47,100
sun is circling the earth right and

2559
01:50:49,430 --> 01:50:48,360
intuitionally I would believe that

2560
01:50:51,649 --> 01:50:49,440
because that's what my senses are

2561
01:50:53,450 --> 01:50:51,659
telling me and you know that wouldn't

2562
01:50:55,430 --> 01:50:53,460
mean I was necessarily stupid I'm just

2563
01:50:56,629 --> 01:50:55,440
I'm just observing my surroundings right

2564
01:50:59,750 --> 01:50:56,639
so like

2565
01:51:01,669 --> 01:50:59,760
you can you can have degrees you can be

2566
01:51:05,090 --> 01:51:01,679
very intelligent you can be a scientist

2567
01:51:06,890 --> 01:51:05,100
and still I think um have a place

2568
01:51:08,450 --> 01:51:06,900
for these other kind of beliefs that

2569
01:51:11,090 --> 01:51:08,460
don't necessarily follow that and that

2570
01:51:13,970 --> 01:51:11,100
kind of circles back to our um

2571
01:51:16,430 --> 01:51:13,980
like distinction of UFO beliefs from

2572
01:51:18,169 --> 01:51:16,440
belief and say Bigfoot or go sore

2573
01:51:20,090 --> 01:51:18,179
religions and stuff like that I think a

2574
01:51:23,149 --> 01:51:20,100
lot of people all over the Earth have

2575
01:51:25,070 --> 01:51:23,159
some kind of beliefs like these right

2576
01:51:27,950 --> 01:51:25,080
yeah it's

2577
01:51:30,830 --> 01:51:27,960
I think a lot of people are open to to

2578
01:51:34,370 --> 01:51:30,840
basically magic of some sort or another

2579
01:51:35,950 --> 01:51:34,380
and as far as the scientists having a

2580
01:51:38,510 --> 01:51:35,960
PhD doesn't

2581
01:51:40,910 --> 01:51:38,520
certifies you as rational there's been

2582
01:51:43,850 --> 01:51:40,920
right you know someone pointed out that

2583
01:51:46,550 --> 01:51:43,860
um you know the Unabomber was a PhD so

2584
01:51:49,129 --> 01:51:46,560
yeah um but you know one interesting

2585
01:51:51,770 --> 01:51:49,139
thing about it is a lot of these people

2586
01:51:55,430 --> 01:51:51,780
uh Richard Haynes would be an example uh

2587
01:51:57,649 --> 01:51:55,440
come in uh and you know they're they're

2588
01:52:00,410 --> 01:51:57,659
experts in one field and they become

2589
01:52:03,109 --> 01:52:00,420
interested in another facet in UFOs it

2590
01:52:05,570 --> 01:52:03,119
was it's almost as if you know in the

2591
01:52:08,629 --> 01:52:05,580
UFO topic you know everyone's a beginner

2592
01:52:14,590 --> 01:52:08,639
and you know strangely they don't they

2593
01:52:18,530 --> 01:52:14,600
usually don't apply their training

2594
01:52:20,330 --> 01:52:18,540
directly to the study UFOs and it's some

2595
01:52:21,570 --> 01:52:20,340
it's some other aspect about it that

2596
01:52:22,930 --> 01:52:21,580
fascinates them

2597
01:52:26,689 --> 01:52:22,940
[Music]

2598
01:52:29,990 --> 01:52:26,699
I agree with that there's an interesting

2599
01:52:32,090 --> 01:52:30,000
feature uh with the the scientists most

2600
01:52:36,109 --> 01:52:32,100
deeply involved

2601
01:52:38,570 --> 01:52:36,119
um you know Dr valet Dr heineck

2602
01:52:41,270 --> 01:52:38,580
um doctor put off to some extent they

2603
01:52:45,370 --> 01:52:41,280
all seem to eventually move towards this

2604
01:52:49,010 --> 01:52:45,380
idea of it being like the same thing as

2605
01:52:49,970 --> 01:52:49,020
historical operations of uh fairies and

2606
01:52:52,370 --> 01:52:49,980
stuff

2607
01:52:54,590 --> 01:52:52,380
um you know valet appeals to Magonia the

2608
01:52:56,390 --> 01:52:54,600
Castle in the Sky you know you're taken

2609
01:52:57,430 --> 01:52:56,400
to and stuff

2610
01:52:59,629 --> 01:52:57,440
um

2611
01:53:02,990 --> 01:52:59,639
do you have any

2612
01:53:06,169 --> 01:53:03,000
intuition about like like why that would

2613
01:53:09,169 --> 01:53:06,179
be why when people who are at the top of

2614
01:53:11,930 --> 01:53:09,179
their like scientific credentials would

2615
01:53:14,450 --> 01:53:11,940
sort of move towards that most

2616
01:53:15,890 --> 01:53:14,460
um from an outside perspective seemingly

2617
01:53:23,330 --> 01:53:15,900
uh I mean I don't want to be offensive

2618
01:53:31,070 --> 01:53:30,109
um so Valley had a a background that

2619
01:53:33,290 --> 01:53:31,080
um

2620
01:53:35,930 --> 01:53:33,300
you know he had a prior interest in in

2621
01:53:38,149 --> 01:53:35,940
he was a rosicrucian and you know some

2622
01:53:41,209 --> 01:53:38,159
interest in the occult and things like

2623
01:53:41,810 --> 01:53:41,219
that and as far as put off

2624
01:53:42,950 --> 01:53:41,820
he

2625
01:53:45,709 --> 01:53:42,960
um

2626
01:53:47,810 --> 01:53:45,719
he read uh adamsky's book in his Youth

2627
01:53:49,370 --> 01:53:47,820
and he said it changed his life so

2628
01:53:52,310 --> 01:53:49,380
obviously

2629
01:53:54,109 --> 01:53:52,320
you know he was open to a lot of this I

2630
01:53:56,209 --> 01:53:54,119
mean it wasn't as if these men were

2631
01:53:58,490 --> 01:53:56,219
purely trained scientists and he said oh

2632
01:54:00,290 --> 01:53:58,500
UFOs and psychic hey let's let's look

2633
01:54:02,149 --> 01:54:00,300
into that you know they they already had

2634
01:54:05,870 --> 01:54:02,159
an appetite for that you know at least

2635
01:54:08,870 --> 01:54:05,880
in in those those two cases

2636
01:54:11,750 --> 01:54:08,880
um and you know John Alexander had a

2637
01:54:14,930 --> 01:54:11,760
military background he he said that he

2638
01:54:17,810 --> 01:54:14,940
grew he says he remembers the 1947 UFO

2639
01:54:19,970 --> 01:54:17,820
events in the news so you know that

2640
01:54:23,149 --> 01:54:19,980
apparently was one of his many interests

2641
01:54:25,490 --> 01:54:23,159
you know a lifelong interest

2642
01:54:28,310 --> 01:54:25,500
um so you know it's rare to find

2643
01:54:29,810 --> 01:54:28,320
somebody who is basically a convert uh

2644
01:54:33,109 --> 01:54:29,820
you know a scientist it wasn't

2645
01:54:35,270 --> 01:54:33,119
interested in UFO's uh Dr James McDonald

2646
01:54:37,010 --> 01:54:35,280
I think it is is probably one of the

2647
01:54:40,390 --> 01:54:37,020
ones that stands out who became

2648
01:54:42,950 --> 01:54:40,400
interested relatively late in life right

2649
01:54:45,109 --> 01:54:42,960
but you know it's probably hard to

2650
01:54:46,070 --> 01:54:45,119
persuade him there have been a few you

2651
01:54:48,890 --> 01:54:46,080
know there's

2652
01:54:50,149 --> 01:54:48,900
um but you know I

2653
01:54:54,470 --> 01:54:50,159
it's

2654
01:54:59,629 --> 01:54:54,480
um

2655
01:55:01,070 --> 01:54:59,639
when in in some of the times like when

2656
01:55:03,050 --> 01:55:01,080
you get Dr Khan and who wasn't

2657
01:55:06,050 --> 01:55:03,060
interested and is basically forced to

2658
01:55:09,050 --> 01:55:06,060
look into UFOs you know not necessarily

2659
01:55:10,030 --> 01:55:09,060
like the uh the answers that are given

2660
01:55:12,590 --> 01:55:10,040
um

2661
01:55:15,470 --> 01:55:12,600
I wanted to compare a couple of things

2662
01:55:16,550 --> 01:55:15,480
so the continent report you know that

2663
01:55:18,950 --> 01:55:16,560
the government was supposed to be

2664
01:55:20,870 --> 01:55:18,960
looking in the UFOs ufologists were

2665
01:55:23,689 --> 01:55:20,880
really interested John schustler wrote a

2666
01:55:25,970 --> 01:55:23,699
an article about how you know how great

2667
01:55:28,209 --> 01:55:25,980
this was going to be and obviously the

2668
01:55:32,390 --> 01:55:28,219
results didn't please him

2669
01:55:34,330 --> 01:55:32,400
talking about the um the uh

2670
01:55:37,609 --> 01:55:34,340
the Roswell report

2671
01:55:41,330 --> 01:55:37,619
uh in the 90s was that or was that Judy

2672
01:55:43,729 --> 01:55:41,340
Campbell I mentioned yeah so that was

2673
01:55:46,070 --> 01:55:43,739
now that was actually at the uh there

2674
01:55:48,530 --> 01:55:46,080
was there was pressure from uh Senator

2675
01:55:50,870 --> 01:55:48,540
Schiff but it was uh the President

2676
01:55:55,010 --> 01:55:50,880
Clinton that actually you know gave the

2677
01:55:56,209 --> 01:55:55,020
the push for that to happen and so that

2678
01:55:58,189 --> 01:55:56,219
was supposed to be a good government

2679
01:56:00,169 --> 01:55:58,199
investigation and everybody you know

2680
01:56:02,390 --> 01:56:00,179
there was the expectation this will

2681
01:56:06,050 --> 01:56:02,400
prove Roswell and then it was quite the

2682
01:56:08,030 --> 01:56:06,060
opposite uh and so now we've got another

2683
01:56:10,189 --> 01:56:08,040
government involvement you know we had

2684
01:56:12,290 --> 01:56:10,199
we had blue book and you know where

2685
01:56:14,390 --> 01:56:12,300
these others have gone I don't see the

2686
01:56:16,910 --> 01:56:14,400
outcome being much different you know

2687
01:56:18,890 --> 01:56:16,920
invested you know if it's not negative

2688
01:56:21,530 --> 01:56:18,900
which it may be it's going to be

2689
01:56:23,810 --> 01:56:21,540
inconclusive and it's just the wheels

2690
01:56:25,970 --> 01:56:23,820
turning

2691
01:56:27,229 --> 01:56:25,980
well we're getting uh close to the top

2692
01:56:29,510 --> 01:56:27,239
of the hour

2693
01:56:31,850 --> 01:56:29,520
um Louise Nick do you have any final uh

2694
01:56:34,490 --> 01:56:31,860
questions uh for Kurt before we wrap up

2695
01:56:36,229 --> 01:56:34,500
no final questions but I really want uh

2696
01:56:37,609 --> 01:56:36,239
everyone who's watching or you know

2697
01:56:40,010 --> 01:56:37,619
watching later if you guys haven't

2698
01:56:42,350 --> 01:56:40,020
checked out both of Kurt's blogs I

2699
01:56:45,350 --> 01:56:42,360
really I really uh recommend you do

2700
01:56:47,870 --> 01:56:45,360
they're both really excellent

2701
01:56:48,709 --> 01:56:47,880
Louise do you have anything no I second

2702
01:56:51,290 --> 01:56:48,719
that

2703
01:56:53,689 --> 01:56:51,300
excellent Kirk do you have any uh final

2704
01:56:56,689 --> 01:56:53,699
thoughts for us uh about your your

2705
01:57:00,050 --> 01:56:56,699
journey through the UFO subject

2706
01:57:02,330 --> 01:57:00,060
oh well you know it is a journey so and

2707
01:57:05,149 --> 01:57:02,340
you know some people say there's there's

2708
01:57:07,129 --> 01:57:05,159
not an end in sight so you know keep

2709
01:57:08,750 --> 01:57:07,139
keep an open mind it's hard to do

2710
01:57:10,430 --> 01:57:08,760
sometimes you're going to face a lot of

2711
01:57:13,070 --> 01:57:10,440
disappointment and you know if you're

2712
01:57:15,290 --> 01:57:13,080
interested in UFOs just be prepared most

2713
01:57:17,629 --> 01:57:15,300
cases crumble you know they there's

2714
01:57:20,450 --> 01:57:17,639
either insufficient evidence you'll find

2715
01:57:23,570 --> 01:57:20,460
that it's it's fake there there are some

2716
01:57:25,609 --> 01:57:23,580
genuine Mysteries try to you know try to

2717
01:57:27,770 --> 01:57:25,619
remain positive and you know for your

2718
01:57:30,350 --> 01:57:27,780
mental health have some other Hobbies

2719
01:57:31,970 --> 01:57:30,360
something that you can complete and with

2720
01:57:34,570 --> 01:57:31,980
a satisfying answer because you're not

2721
01:57:37,490 --> 01:57:34,580
going to get that very often with UFOs

2722
01:57:40,669 --> 01:57:37,500
excellent advice wise words yeah

2723
01:57:43,550 --> 01:57:40,679
absolutely and uh just uh your uh social

2724
01:57:46,250 --> 01:57:43,560
media links uh Kurt we do have your uh

2725
01:57:48,050 --> 01:57:46,260
Twitter and your uh two websites in the

2726
01:57:50,149 --> 01:57:48,060
show notes is there anything else you'd

2727
01:57:53,870 --> 01:57:50,159
like to plug right now

2728
01:57:56,390 --> 01:57:53,880
oh well you know if I I love to have

2729
01:57:58,010 --> 01:57:56,400
feedback uh you find out what people are

2730
01:58:00,290 --> 01:57:58,020
interested what they'd like to see more

2731
01:58:02,629 --> 01:58:00,300
of you know in the saucers that Tom

2732
01:58:05,030 --> 01:58:02,639
forgot I try to expose people to

2733
01:58:07,490 --> 01:58:05,040
little-known things you know I usually

2734
01:58:09,050 --> 01:58:07,500
avoid things like Roswell so I want you

2735
01:58:11,390 --> 01:58:09,060
know I want to and some of the some of

2736
01:58:14,689 --> 01:58:11,400
the pioneers of ufology I'd like to

2737
01:58:17,629 --> 01:58:14,699
focus on them so you know it's um and

2738
01:58:19,129 --> 01:58:17,639
you know some of them are kind of you

2739
01:58:21,890 --> 01:58:19,139
know there's some hoaxes that have been

2740
01:58:23,810 --> 01:58:21,900
exposed there's some some of them are

2741
01:58:25,129 --> 01:58:23,820
kind of humorous so there's there's a

2742
01:58:26,870 --> 01:58:25,139
little something for everyone I hope

2743
01:58:29,390 --> 01:58:26,880
people will check it out

2744
01:58:33,169 --> 01:58:29,400
awesome well thanks so much for finally

2745
01:58:35,930 --> 01:58:33,179
coming on oh yeah we got you on here

2746
01:58:38,629 --> 01:58:35,940
yeah cheers uh and I'll I'll close this

2747
01:58:41,689 --> 01:58:38,639
off now and roll the credits so uh our

2748
01:58:44,990 --> 01:58:41,699
first episode without Leah Prime in the

2749
01:58:47,990 --> 01:58:45,000
uh Pilot's seat uh worked okay yeah

2750
01:58:50,689 --> 01:58:48,000
right now well we're all looking forward

2751
01:58:52,910 --> 01:58:50,699
to a return next week so uh let's not

2752
01:58:55,189 --> 01:58:52,920
get ahead of ourselves but uh all right

2753
01:59:00,050 --> 01:58:55,199
everybody this has been awesome uh cool

2754
01:59:12,150 --> 01:59:02,990
oops that's the wrong one

2755
01:59:50,670 --> 01:59:48,080
[Music]

2756
01:59:53,689 --> 01:59:50,680
[Applause]

2757
01:59:56,340 --> 01:59:53,699
[Music]

2758
02:00:47,330 --> 01:59:56,350
foreign